ELP Digest Tuesday, April 4 1995 Volume 5 : Issue 9 The "In Time You'll See the Sign" Edition Today's Topics: addendum to previous post GL on American Airlines audio Re: Christian imagery...English ELP Digest musings 1st Message "Pictures" video available commercially Further ELP Rumors Emerson's La Chiesa Emo interview for Digest COMPOSITION! Prelude ======= This issue is probably way too big. But it's got a translation of a Keith Emerson interview that was done in Germany. There are a few dropouts in it that I hope to fix up some day but it's a great read (even though not too up-beat). So, without further ado... see the show... - John - ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:19:06 -0600 (CST) From: "William D. Gagliani" Subject: addendum to previous post To: arnold@iii.net [ Editor's note: My apologies for splitting this over the last 2 Digests. I forgot to paste these together at the end of the last Digest. - John - ] This should be appended to my earlier message regarding humanist lyrics in ELP ... I'm at work, and some lyrics I wanted to include slipped my mind (sorry!). In Keith's song Playing for Keeps, in which I mentioned a Chance/Dance connection to Thomas Howard's book on secular humanism, another lyric reads, in part: "Life is its own reward/we can only guess what's more?" It also utilizes the phrase "touch and go," but I don't know if this use predates the ELPowell song of that title. This Best of KE collection is a Japanese import and all liner notes are in Japanese, except for song titles. I'd love to know which film Playing for Keeps was in, if anyone can tell me. It's not on Nighthawks or Inferno (I have those) ... I would also love to know what other films Keith has scored. I'm pretty sure he did one or two more Dario Argento films, but I'm don't know which ones. In any case, I have interpreted much of their early lyrical content in a secular humanist slant -- especially in Tarkus, but also in BSS and Trilogy. I can probably describe myself as "cautiously humanist," perhaps influenced by the works of Isaac Asimov and ELP. Enough for now ... I'd like to do a breakdown of the Playing for Keeps lyrics, but I can't make out enough of them and there is no lyrics sheet. I hate when work intrudes on my intellectual life! Take care and best wishes to all ELP Digest readers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:29:51 -0600 (CST) From: Sarah Ann Jones To: arnold@iii.net Subject: GL on American Airlines audio hi everybody! I had occasion this past weekend to fly American Airlines and learned that Greg Lake is featured among their in-flight audio programs. My flight didn't offer audio service, though, so I didn't get the chance to listen. This information comes from American's in-flight magazine, "American Way" (Feb 15, 1995) in the section describing the various audio programs available. P. 132 has the listings for Channel 2--"Flightline" which includes in its second portion a bit from "CurtCo's Home Theater Technology", described as "a new magazine featuring total coverage of the home entertainment phenomenon". Greg's piece is their 1st contribution--no mention of what the bit consists of. Has anybody had a chance to hear this? --Sarah *********************************************************************** Sarah Jones ".... disturbing the waters of our lives." Univ of North Texas SLIS grad student: saj0001@jove.acs.unt.edu Univ of Texas at Arlington Libraries ILLer: Sarah.Jones@uta.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:14:28 +0800 From: John.Lukes@EBay.Sun.COM (John Lukes) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Re: Christian imagery...English Sensing an onslaught of polemic posts, I would simply like to point out what I think is Bob Crispen's kernal thought in his "Re: Conversion?" post in V5 #5, with which I wholeheartedly concur: >> That Emerson uses Christian religious imagery should be >> no more shocking than his use of English. -JOHN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:56:41 -0600 (CST) From: Craig Koukol Subject: ELP Digest musings To: arnold@iii.net Thanks to all, especially you, John, for providing such a great forum for civilized discussion on ELP. To those that replied to my query about the origins of BSS-The Single, thanks for all the information. I also want to clarify my comments in Vol.5/#5 re "Jerusalem" as an ELP "masterwork"---I didn't mean to imply that I thought that ELP had authored this old hymn (for proof, just look at my sig!); "master performance" would have been a better wording. My point was that if ELP were devoted to promoting atheism, they wouldn't have performed a song like this with such great effect. At any rate, as Rev. Bob pointed out in his thoughtful comments, our appreciation of ELP's music has surely not revolved around what religious symbolism (or lack thereof) may be present in the lyrics. And while I don't want to see this digest turned into an arena for dueling religious beliefs, I appreciate those like Bj/orn Are and others who aren't afraid to interject their faith into the discussion. Bruce Shaw's comments on Greg's "wonderful, resonant, vibrant voice" move me to inquire about a topic of concern in earlier Digests---Greg's obvious vocal problems hitting some notes as revealed in the new recording of "Pictures." Were these problems only temporary? Are they evident on ITHS (haven't purchased it yet)? Bruce also mentioned the joy of hearing all of Karn Evil 9 on the radio---long ago I once heard all of Tarkus played on an FM station while driving in central Illinois; it was immediately followed by a cut from the now defunct English-progfolk group Steeleye Span. Quite an experience! A final comment on Vaughn Williams: check out his Sinfonia Antarctica. Not much in the way of Emerson-borrowable riffs, but still a great piece of music. See ya later in ELP Digest land. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Craig Koukol "I will not cease from mental fight - Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand | 'Till we have built Jerusalem O======|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In England's green and pleasant land." | - ---Blake ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Editor's note: In case it hasn't been made obvious, the hymn "Jerusalem" pervades a lot of British culture. I'm sure William Blake would be amused since the poem isn't too favorable toward thos dark, satanic mills. Still, it's a staple of many popular culture views of Britain. For instance, check out the beginning of the film "Chariots of Fire" (whose title is taken from the same poem). re: Greg's voice. I'm not sure there's any "damage" however we should remember that just about everyone's singing voice drops as they get older. For instance, Steve Winwood's voicis still great but in live situations, songs like "Gimme Some Loving" (not the Keith version on the Nighthawks soundtrack!) have been re-arranged to drop them a few steps. And I recall an interview where there was some discussion about how KE9 strained the high end of Greg's register even in the studio and, given the complicated keyboard part, it was not something that could be easily re-arranged into a a different vocal register. - John - ] ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 95 16:39:31 EST From: "Plotczyk, Steve" To: Subject: 1st Message 1) Introduction This is my first ELP-Digest message. My name is Steve Plotczyk. I was born in 1955 and grew up in Worcester Mass. I have been interested in music ever since I heard the 1958 song "Telstar" by "The Tornadoes". I became more deeply interested in music when the Beatles "Sargeant Pepper" came along. I started playing around with Keyboards and Guitars at that time. When ELP came along I felt that I could never play anything like that myself. But since the era of good music is over I've decided that if I ever expect to hear anything that I like then I better do it myself. So I have been devoting my free time to working on ELP songs but available sheet music is sadly lacking. Just trying to keep pace with Emerson is a great way to improve skill though. I like to do improvisations (like Take a Pebble and Stones of Years) and try to take the music further experimentally. In the same way that Emerson has taken other composers works to deeper levels. Has anyone done any personal recordings of ELP stuff or know of anyone who has? 2) Modern Music It seems to me that as technology has advanced the interaction that musicians had with their instruments has been replaced by a cold computer-like interface of endless pushbutton menus. Just as annoying as those telephone menus ("Push 1 now"). One is reminded of the end of Karn Evil 9 where the super-computer takes over and starts telling the people what to do. Could this be why modern music has no warmth or feeling? I hope that someday someone engineers an ergonomic keyboard with emphasis on letting the musician be as expressive as possible instead of making the musician conform to the restrictions and limitations of mass production economy. 3) Initiation to Really Good Music I'll never forget the time my friend brought over a new album to listen to. He said "you've never heard anything like this before". And was he right! The album was King Crimson's "In the Court of the Crimson King". It wasn't long before he brought over another album and said "This one is even better than that other one". That album was "Tarkus"! Eventually I bought every album ELP made. I also went to every concert I ever heard about and could get to. 4) Concert Attendance Boston Garden , Boston MA 73-74? (Brain Salad Surgery tour?) Springfield Auditorium?, Springfield MA 77-78? (Works 2 tour?) Great Woods Performing Arts Center, Mansfield MA 1986? (ELPowell tour) Great Woods Performing Arts Center, Mansfield MA 7-29-92 The Bushnell, Hartford CT 8-4-92 Orpheum Theatre, Boston MA 1-29-93 Paramount Theatre, Springfield MA 2-1-93 I was in the worst possible seat at the Boston Garden concert. I was so far away that I couldn't even distinguish the band members. And when I left early (during Karn Evil 9) to catch the bus back home (no car at that time) it turned out that my watch was defective and had gained an hour. So I could have stayed until the end of the show and still caught the bus back home! What a disasterous evening. When I went to the "Works" concert it was general admission. I left home when it was still dark out. I was the 1st one there and waited outside all day long in extremely cold temperatures and finally got in at night. I was directly in front of Kieth Emerson. At one point (3rd impression sequence finale I think) the back of his Moog unfolded out so it was facing the audience and blew up (simulated) right in my face. Then his piano rose majestically out of the bottom of the stage as he began playing it. I never saw anything like that concert in my life. Not one mistake by all three musicians. Carl Palmer's drum setup and solo were incredible. Greg Lake's performance was perfect. Kieth Emerson's improvisations were the best I've ever heard. That concert was my most memorable musical moment and a dream come true. 5) To Dream I had a vivid dream one night that ELP had re-united. Although such a prospect was unlikely at the time, within a year I heard on the radio that ELP had done just that! The Black Moon album came out shortly after and the rest is history. Now if only I could have a dream about a new ELP 8-CD boxed set of extremely long concept pieces (with accompanying sheet music!)... 6) ELP Sheet Music Why is it that you can walk into any music store in the USA and buy a 1 inch thick book of every "Yes" song that there is but if you ask about ELP sheet music you get told "Sorry not even one thing is available"!? Is not Kieth Emerson the best Keyboardist that there ever was? Is not the body of work produced by this man important to preserve for the future generations of mankind? I think so. It would be my wish to have full orchestral type transcriptions of every song that Emerson ever performed. But I can't do it myself. Are there any musicians out there with a good earwho would like to join forces for a worldwide project devoted to this very thing? What a nice present it would be to present Mr. Emerson with a full catalog of his life's works. It's only fitting that we should give him something back for all the great music he has given us. 7) Eruption Ostinato Fingering I saw a description of the left-hand bass fingering of the 1st Eruption ostinato somewhere but it was different from the one I use. This is the fingering I use for all 3 ostinatos: 5 3 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 4 F2 Bb2 Eb3 Bb2 Ab3 Eb3 Bb2 Fb3 Cb2 Gb2 C2 F2 Bb2 F2 Eb3 Bb2 F2 Cb3 Gb2 Db2 E2 A2 D3 A2 G3 D3 A2 E3 B2 F2 8) Finale My appreciation goes out to all of the people who have helped me get sheet music, audios, videos, fanzines, articles and information related to ELP. I can be contacted at: Steven Plotczyk 25 Chilmark St Worcester Ma 01604-2810 Home (508)755-5247 Work (508)481-5800 x 2423 Compuserve: MHS:PLOTCZYK@FSSI Internet: PLOTCZYK@FSSI.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:24:21 EDT From: "Peter C.S. Adams 7-5263" To: arnold@iii.net Subject: "Pictures" video available commercially Griffin Video has released "Pictures at an Exhibition" by Emmerson [sic] Lake + Palmer, a 45-minute color hi-fi video (it says stereo but it sounds mono to me). Recorded at the Lyceum in London (c. 1970?) it was probably intended for broadcast because it does not seem to have the quality of film, but that of a Betacam. This is not one of ELP's tighter performances (for instance, Keith keeps having to adjust his equipment -- electronic and otherwise), but it is highly enjoyable. It is also a fine period piece (get out your lava lamps and have some granola and drugs on hand). In particular, the production team of Nicholas Ferguson (dir) and Dick Preston (anim) have chosen to turn "The Old Castle / Blues Variation" into a too-long psychedelic "trip" a la 2001. Oh, well, it was 1970 (?). Keith is resplendent in a shirtless skin-tight green-and blue lame number, all the boys have their '70s hair, and boy! do they look young! The sound is mostly quite good, marred occasionally by mixing problems with the keyboards (see above). The editing is standard TV rockumentary stuff, mostly dissolves between the players with a few audience shots and the occasional bad cut or poorly-chosen shot (e.g. shot or Carl smiling as Greg starts singing). Overall rating: *** (do you really care? you'll buy it anyway, right?) GV-116-3 "Pictures at an Exhibition" (c) 1994 $14.95 (street price) Griffin Video P.O. Box 87587 Carol Stream, IL 60188-7587 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ / / Peter C.S. Adams | People are stirred, moved by the Word, | Computing Services | Kneel at the shrine, deceived by the wine.... | UMass-Boston | -- Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, "Tarkus" +--------------------+ [ Editor's note: Alternatively, be on the lookout for the laserdisc of this same show that is longer and includes The Barbarian, Take A Pebble, and Knife Edge. Don't know if it's available on videotape. - John - ] ------------------------------ From: Maureen@eworld.com To: arnold@iii.net Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 23:42:01 PST Subject: Further ELP Rumors >From the February issue of "Museletter," an electronic music newsletter that originates on eWorld: > Before we get started, we would just like to point out that > Emerson, Lake and Palmer will be touring this summer. No > comment, we just wanted you to know. (A moment of silence to > think about this, please.) Thank you. Sla/n, Mo! Maureen@eWorld.com [ Editor's note: For every rumor of a tour, we hear a rumor of a break up. I hope we hear more good news sometime soon! - John - ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 08:39 CDT From: Janell Duxbury Subject: Emerson's La Chiesa To: ARNOLD@III.NET Any chance the ELP WWW Home Page will include individual discographies with all the details, not just group albums? I realize the page is "under construction". [ Editor's note: I'm working on as complete an ELP dicography on the Web as I can manage. Check the Web page as time permits for the occasional update though I'll announce things here as they get closer to being useful. - John - ] In the meantime, I am curious to know if Keith Emerson's LA CHIESA includes any classical cover versions (Bach maybe?). If so, I need all the discographical details. Someone told me it is probably a film soundtrack. Thanks to the many people who replied to my request for details on his album HONKY. I appreciate all the detail that was given. Bye, Janell Duxbury ------------------------------ From: m.burns@genie.geis.com Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 05:58:00 UTC To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Emo interview for Digest The following is an interview that was translated and posted on Prodigy by Bill Wagner, who gave me permission to pass on his translation and share this with everyone thru the Digest.... enjoy, Mary Ann :) To: ALL From: BILL WAGNER (UNDV49A on Prodigy ) date02/09 I have a translated interview that Emerson did with the German magazine "Keyboards" in November 1994. I'm going to try and share most of it with you. (this interview was done sometime after the release of ITHS, late last summer, I suspect MAB) The Being 50 Blues. By Keith Emerson Q: Keith, prior to this interview we were supposed to be talking to you in LA and now you've suddenly returned to England. Where are you living at the moment? A: Nowhere. Q: Everone lives somewhere. Everyone has a house or a flat, or at least should have one. A: I don't have one. I'm just getting divorced. (Pause) I live in hotels. Q: And how do you spend your time there? A: Waiting. Q: For What? A: That the divorce gets over and done with. I mean, so that [ Editor's note: Something seemed to get dropped here before it got to me. Sorry. - John - ] A:Mmm...I suppose that's what you'd call it. Q: How's your right arm at the moment? A: It's OK. It could be better. I hope it will get better. I've only had it operated on in October (1993). Q: Can you play solos now? A: To a limited extent. What I'm doing mostly now is playing for physiotherapy, since I'm still convalescing. But I can't play for too long; two hours would be too much in any case. Q: What would you advise young keyboard players who want to avoid the same problem? A: I'd say be careful with your hands. Don't play too hard. And if you feel something is wrong, go to the doctor straight away. Ignoring the problem won't help. Q: Was the material for the new album (In the Hot Seat) recorded before the operation? A: Yes, some of the recordings were done before it. Q: Did you tell Greg and Carl about your handicap right away, or did you try to hide it from them at first? A: No, I told them immediately that I had a problem. Q: How did they react? A: Well, I knew they would be shaken by the news. I mean, they didn't dramatise it as if someone'd told them their mother was dead, but they did act concerned. Q: Did you consider not finishing the new album? A: No, we only discussed whether we COULD get it finished. Q: What was your opinion? A: My opinion was: let's try it. Greg and Carl said that, too. Q: But you had some difficult parts to play, for instance the Moog solo towards the end of "We Have the Power". A: Yes, but luckily in the studio you can play everything again if it doesn't work out the first time. Q: How many takes did you have to do in that case? A: No idea. I don't remember any more. (Pause) But I did do quite a few. Q: Did you work with sequencing more than before, in order to make up for your limited playing abilities? A: Yes, but only after the operation. The things that were recorded before then, I really PLAYED. I hope the difference is not that noticeable. Q: What I've noticed is that this time you've played fewer solo lines and more chords and layers in their place. A: Which song are you talking about? Q: "Gone Too Soon", for example. There's only one solo on that track, if I remember correctly. A: (Silent) Q: I mean, did you style the material in that way so that you wouldn't have too much of a problem playing it, or were the songs already written before the problem with you hand came up? A: Well, a large part ofthe material was chosen by the producer anyway, by Keith Olsen. I don't necessarily agree with his choice, but I can live with it. (Pause) Q: That doesn't answer the question. A: No, it doesn't...(laughs). Q: To put it differently, were there more songs than you've released on the album, or did you have difficulties filling the album? A: There were more songs, and therefore someone had to make a choice. On a whole, Keith Olsen did a really good job, I think. He's tried to make an ELP album, despite everything. Q: Do you think he's succeeded in doing that? A: Yes. I mean, you can tell it's us, can't you? with for them. If no suitable lyrics to a piece came to him, that song got dropped. But in my capacity as a songwriter, I've probably written a few thousand pieces for this album that DIDN'T get used. Q: Why did you employ Keith Olsen? He's a Californian, and perhaps best known for his work with Fleetwood Mac, so surely not a man that comes as top choice for a group like ELP, so deeply rooted in the European tradition? A: Well, in terms of internal collaborations ELP has always been a tricky business. That's why I'd never want to go into the studio with this band and let a new face produce it, purely because of certain behaviors. Q: You're alluding to Greg Lake. A: Yes, I'm talking about Greg Lake. Q: Are you still in conflict? A: I wouldn't call it "conflict". I'd say "difference of opinion". Different views on music, different approaches, different temperaments, you know. I mean, it was never easy to work with Greg Lake, but he'd probably say the same thing about me (laughs). The only way to avoid conflict in advance was to get a producer from outside, who would have the last word in case of doubts. Keith Olsen was the right person for that, as he's been in the business for a while and has enough authority to push his way through. Q: Still, it came to me as a surprise that you'd worked with an "outside" producer on Black Moon, as Greg Lake had produced all your earlier works. Did he hand over the controls so easily? A: No, quite the opposite. Greg Lake was EXTREMELY reserved when we told him that we wanted to get a producer in. It wasn't about WHO the producer was; Greg would have had something against everyone. He just HAD to have his name on the record as the producer. Q: Was it vanity or desire to have total control in the studio? A: I suppose it was both, but above all it was the control that he was interested in, of course. Greg Lake has always had difficulty accepting other people's opinions. If, on top of that, you're dealing with such different personalities like we are, all trying to push their ideas, collisions are inevitable. So it's better to have some sort of arbitrator there from the beginning, someone to seize the weapons, you know. Q: But why Keith Olsen, of all producers? A: (Pause) Well, I guess he was the only one stupid enough to let himself get involved (laughs). He'd certainly thought the job was going to be easier than it actually was. Q: You've recorded a Bob Dylan song, "Man in the Long Black Coat", for ITHS. You arranged it, but whose idea was it to record it? A: It was mine. Q: With The Nice, you've already recorded a song that one wouldn't necessarily expect in the context of the music associated with your name. It was "Hang Onto a Dream" by Tim Hardin then, also a folk song. A: Yes, a wonderful, indestructable song. Q: Do you have a secret predilection for folk music? A: Yes, I like folk music, but I've never made any secret of it. I mean, I like all sorts of musical forms, I've always regarded myself as an eclectic musician. It would be boring to play only one style of music. Q: What sort of music do you listen to at the moment? A: Nothing at all. Q: Why not? Since I can't get them out at the moment, I listen to jazz radio, and classical radio every now and then. Q: No rock stations? A: No, apart from sometimes watching MTV. (pause) To be honest, I don't listen to a great deal of music in general. I mean, I don't make an effort to find out what sort of things get played on radio these days. I don't need to listen to music all the time in order to be able to write some myself. I haven't bought any new albums for years. Q: How did you come across Long Black Coat? The song is still relatively new. A: (Pause) No idea, I can't remember right now. Q: What about Long Black Coat attracted you so much that you wanted to do your own version of it? The music or the message? A: The story. Dylan tells a story in the song and I liked the vivid language he's worked with. originally I wanted to arrange the song in a way so that it could fill a whole side of an LP. I wanted to tell Dylan's story again but by musical means. Q: How far did you get with that idea? A: Very far. I took the song into the studio and worked on it for quite a long time. In the end I had a musical concept, developed around "Man in the Black Coat". Q: A sort of Tarkus based on a Bob Dylan song? A: Yes, a sort of western, where the script is by Dylan and I'm the director, if you like. Unfortunately, Keith Olsen only wanted to have the script and not the film. He didn't want anything that looked even remotely like a "concept" on this album. Q: Are you not entirely happy with the album because of that? A: Well, I thought it was a shame that he wanted an album with only short songs. I mean, ELP have always done things that wouldn't be suitable for a single. But Keith Olsen thought that the kind of music that went beyond the song (form) would better be released separately at some stage. Q: On an ELP album or on a solo album? A: We didn't discuss that. I accepted his decision and that was that. Q: Why was the album not released under the name OLP then? A: I beg your pardon? Q: I mean, if you had nothing to do with the decisions, the project could have the name Olsen, Lake & Palmer on it. A: (Pause) Well, I composed and played on it, so I was part of it (Pause) I've done my best. Q: You don't sound particularly happy. A: (Pause) Well, I have seen better days in my life. Q: Is that why Man in the Long Black Coat touched you? It's not one of Dylan's happiest songs. A: No, I simply liked the song. And I like Dylan. Q: Have you been following what Dylan's been doing in the last few years, like his records or what he calls his "Never Ending Tour"? A: Not really, I must admit, but I've always kept an eye on Dylan. I mean, I was always interested to see what he was up to, ever since the days of The Nice, where we adapted some of his songs, things like "She Belongs To Me", for example or "Country Pie". Q: You've also dug up some of your old material for the CD box set "Return of the Manticore". For example, "Pictures at an Exhibition", which is included in ITHS again. Why a new recording? Were you not happy with the original? A: Yes, absolutely. Considering the technical possibilities at the time it was perfectly OK. But we've played PAAE so [ Editor's note: another dropout.... ] A: Yes, this technology had so far only been used for films, but it was an obvious thing for PAAE. Now it really sounds like you can walk into the exhibition. The sound comes from all sides, from the front and from the back. Q: Is this new recording the first studio version of "Pictures...", or did a studio version exist in 1972 that just didn't get released? A: No, there was only the live recording, which was made at the Newcastle City Hall. I mean, when we released the PAAE as a live album back then, it was a rather risky step to take. Originally we didn't want to put it out at all, or at least not as an album on its own. But we'd played it so often, and all sorts of people pressed us to release it. So we gave in and told our record company, OK, if you have to put it out, do a small edition of it, for England only. But it should be no "official" ELP album, it was only thought of as service for the people who just had to have it. We didn't want to take money from people for something that, for us, was a byproduct of our live shows. That's why the album was sold at a reduced price when it came out for the first time. We thought that'd be the end of the story. But then we heard that Pictures was being exported to America, and our American record company gave us hell. They said, "this material has such a power, why are you keeping it back? We want to release it." It was totally unexpected for us, because, as a band, we actually had other plans. It was a bit bizarre (laughs). We were nominated for a Grammy for the album, but we didn't want to make it public, because we didn't want to admit that Pictures meant a new direction for ELP. Q: Were you unhappy that they put you in the Classic Rock pigeonhole? A: Well, I would be exaggerating if I said we were unhappy about it, but we'd thought we could play EVERYTHING within the context of ELP. After PAAE, there was suddenly this emphasis. Q: What would have become of ELP had there been no Pictures? A: No idea. I suppose the band could have developed in another direction, but I really can't say in which. Q: Do you find it regretful that things have happened the way they have? A: (Pause) Well, as I said, before Pictures, we had more musical options, there's no doubt about that. In some respects, Pictures was a turning point for ELP. Q: The new version (of Pictures) is considerably shorter than the original, mere 15 minutes instead of 35 minutes. Why did you take out, for instance, "The Old Castle"? A: For no other reason than that we wanted to tighten the whole thing. Everytime we played it live, we noticed it was too long. It was sagging in a couple of places, so we've got rid of them. Q: You've also re-recorded a few other pieces for ROTM, King Crimson's "21st Century Schizoid Man" for example, or the Crazy World of Arthur Brown's "Fire", or Greg Lake's "I Believe in Father Christmas". They're not part of the ELP repertoire, but one of you had taken part in the original in each case. Why did you re-record them? A: Well, shortly before the "Black Moon" tour, we sat down with Harvey Goldsmith and contemplated whether we could make this tour somehow different. We wanted it to be something very special. My suggestion was: "why don't we play with The [ Editor's note: more dropout but a reference to Robert Fripp as you'll see below ] to see a large part of the history of progressive rock in one show. (Pause) I still think it would have been a fantastic show. Q: Why did it fall through? A: Because of Greg Lake, why else? He just didn't like the idea of working with Bob Fripp again. Q: On musical grounds? A: On Greg Lake grounds! (laughs) Q: Would Robert Fripp have been prepared to work with Greg Lake? A: Well, I don't know whether he'd have had the time to do it. I mean, we never got to ask him, because Greg Lake turned down the idea immediately. But I'm sure Bob would have found the idea exciting. (pause) So, after it became clear that such a tour as I suggested couldn't be realised, we just did it musically in the studio, between the three of us. But I would like to have done this tour, rather than the boxed set. Q: Do you still see a possibility for a package tour of The Nice, King Crimson and ELP? A: No idea. (Pause) Perhaps we've missed the right time for it for good now. Q: Because of Greg or because of your right hand? A: (Silent) Q: Will there be another ELP tour, or an ELP album, at all? A: I hope we can go on tour again, but it certainly won't happen this year, and I don't want to promise anything for the future. The only thing I can say is: I hope so. Q: Have you considered what you want to do if it turns out that your hand won't be back in the condition to allow you to play without any limitation? A: (Silent) Q: I mean, you could compose film music, something you already have done in the past. You wouldn't have to play it yourself, you'd just need to write it and let others play it. A: Yes, I have thought about that. But if it came to that, I think I'd do something completely different, something that's got nothing to do with music. Q: What could that be? A: Well, perhaps I could become a fisherman. I mean, go out and catch fish. Used to catch notes, and now catches fish (laughs). Q: May I wish you all the best and hope that that won't be necessary? A: Thank you, all the best to you, too. Be careful with your hands! THE END ------------------------------ From: bjorn-are.davidsen@s.hk.telenor.no Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:04:14 +0100 To: John E Arnold Subject: COMPOSITION! Re: E(LP) as composers! There has been several very interesting mailings on ELP's musical style and technique lately, however not very much on their compositional style. My friend Geir Hasnes (editor of The Occasional Gentle Giant newsletter and a big ELP fan, however, having little time also to do ELP stuff) has done an interesting analysis of this in relation to Gentle Giant. My challenge is: Are there anyone with a musical background out there who can put ELP in the proper context to Geirs analysis? Of course, Geir just may take the time to do this himself, however I wouldn't count too much on it, as he is VERY busy. BTW: Gentle Giant's album "Giant for a Day" has the same status with GG fans as Love Beach (or Black Moon (or In The Hot Seat)) has with ELP fans, and was made at the same time as Love Beach. I have made some few comments in paranthesises. Here Geir goes: COMPOSITION AND GENTLE GIANT There has been a discussion why Giant for a Day feels like a bad GG album. I would like to take this discussion a step further: What is it we perceive in the GG music that is lacking (more or less obviously) in GfaD? Traditionally, within rock artists make songs. These are characterized by: * emphasis on melody (often a simple melody) * counterbalance with chords (usually a schematic that is widely used) * basis in a bass instrument and rhytm (bass and drums) * ornamentation in instruments (simple piano patterns, finger picking guitar) * simple counterpatterns or fill-ins (simple riffs, often a solo guitar) * simple instrumentation, doing chords, bass line and rhytm, and occasional fillers This is in fact the characteristics for all popular songwriting. In the late 70s, rhytm patterns became more complex (do not flame me for the use of the word), leaving 70s music somewhat old-fashioned for younger listeners. In the middle of the 80s the synthesized instruments became fashion, leaving even electricified instruments like guitar and bass and hammond organ and electric piano out, and thus 70s music became even more oldfashioned. However, the five characteristics of songs still are there. Ornamentation and counterpatterns still are there, but they are made by synths. How then did the socalled progressive music evolve within rock? * melody became more intricate and two part / three part harmonies became more widely used and more sophisticated, as singers wanted to evolve (early-to-middle 60s) * counterpatterns became more widely used and more sophisticated, as instrumental skills became more important (middle of the 60s) * chord progressions became more sophisticated and found "new" ways (middle of the 60s) * ornamentation became more widely used and more sophisticated as solo playing became more important (middle-to-late 60s) * instrumentation became more subtle and instruments were utilized much more (middle-to-late 60s) * the one place where traditional pop/rock didnt evolve significantly towards progressive rock was on the bass / drums level; the bass tended to ornament and fill in more and even had solos, the same with the drums, but basically they did the same as ever. * one should also note that more "subtle" songwriters often shifted the key, this is an old trick, but in some way always distinguishes songwriters. However, one can hardly put up this as an development, although progressive acts often shifted key throughout their "pieces". The first appearance, as I see it (or hear it) towards progressive music was * the utilization of the bass riff (middle-to-late 60s). With this device, the bass played a dialogue with the singer, and melody and bass riff were equally important. The use of counterpoint had (unconsciously) grabbed its place within rock. The notion of song could not longer be used. The bass riff and its unison counterpart in horns and guitar and keyboards and even song play an important part of GGs music. (BAD: Geir here lists some early songs of GG that is typical of this. Anyone having good examples of this in ELP? Knife Edge?) However, we see that it is not that much used on the following albums. The bass riff no longer dominates, but interplays with other instruments (see below). On GfaD the bass lines are much more straight and "usual" and simple than on the previous albums. Another milestone to be reached was * the importance of instrumental effects and instrumental sections (late 60s). The singer no longer was the main person, as the interplay between singer and players became more important. The notion of a simple pop song dwindled. Thus counterpoint became important (probably quite unconsciously), one wished to utilize the excitement of interplay and the effect of shifting between song and instruments, thus creating new tension. This is one of the main characteristics of GG music. It can be found on every piece they made. On GfaD the instrumental effects and sections are not many, and the use of instruments in general are less adventurous than on the previous albums. Yet another milestone to be reached was * the interplay between instruments so that the complete piece becomes more than the sum of its parts (late 60s - early 70s). GG was the main group to utilize this, but it was used fully first on the 2nd album. Note on Pantagruels Natvitity how instruments carrying the lead melody are changing. On The House the Street the Room various instruments come in and fall out in the two fast-pattern parts. On Wreck, song and synthed flute form a perfect counterpoint for two voices. (BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) GG also more and more used this to build up pieces. The first one was Prologue, Proclamation is an obvious example, and the 2nd side of TMP carries this to a skilled interplay between voices and instruments. The albums of Free Hand and Interview are filled to the brim with this continual shift in emphasis so that you cannot hum one instrumental line alone; that does not make sense. (BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) GfaD abandons this trait more or less, and for those who find this trait one of GGs most exciting, GfaD must be a disappointment, although you can here it here and there shining through. * the use of dynamic build-ups, sudden stops and shifts in volume, intensity, velocity (late 60s - early 70s). GG utilized all this wonderfully. This trait may be the main reason that many people find progressive music unpleasant, and often prog groups used this more for effect than achieving real dynamic tension. Both Why Not and Wreck gives early examples of build-ups, while Free Hand (the track) goes very far in suddenness. On GfaD the dynamics are poorly utilized, and that seems intended. * the inference of chords from the instrumental lines and not as a schematic (early 70s). This trait characterizes Gentle Giant more than any other group. They very carefully planned their compositions using horizontal movements in various instruments to decide movements in other instruments rather than vertical decisions out of chord schematics. (BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP? Geir has told me several times that Emerson is one of the very few rock musicians who know how to compose, and not only "making tunes") Funny Ways used in part a schematic, but even then, untraditional chords were used and they did not endure equally. Nothing at All uses a chord schema, but the chords had to be inferred from the different instruments playing together. The opening of Think of Me with Kindness must be the most traditional song-style schema they did before the first side of The Missing Piece. GfaD very little utilizes horizontal motion, it relies almost entirely on chord schemas. As these even are used relatively often, the notions of creativity and adventurousness were felt very little as compared to their earlier albums. * the many notes played (early 70s). No other groups play so much as Gentle Giant, so much different, and with such a precision. Even the slow pieces contain an impressive amount of notes pr bar. (BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) On TMPs first side and on GfaD they deliberately tried to play less. Consequently, those who want many tones pr minute will not be satisfied. * other compositional traits. There are lots of compositional traits that GG used more or less throughout, but that is outside the scope of a short essay written in an early morning. Can you add some important compositional traits to the discussion? Conclusion: GfaD displays all characteristic of intended simplified songwriting as opposed to musical piece composition. The consequence was that GG lost many of their friends while creating few new, thus creating their own downfall: * emphasis on simple melodies * use of chords, schematics that were widely used) * basis in simple bass and drums patterns * little ornamentation * simple counterpatterns or fill-ins * simple instrumentation, doing chords, bass line and rhytm, and occasional fillers They did a good songwriting job, but who cared? Geir Hasnes Remailed from Bjo/rn Are ------------------------------ Digest, mailing address, and administrative stuff to: arnold@iii.net ==\ \ => The same for now... ELP-related info that you / want to put in the digest to: arnold@iii.net =/ Back issues are available from the World Wide Web ELP Home Page: URL: http://bliss.berkeley.edu/elp/ Note: The opinions, information, etc. contained in this digest are those of the original message sender listed in each message. They are not necessarily those of the mailing list/digest administrator or those of any institution through whose computers/networks this mail flows. Unless otherwise noted, the individual authors of each entry in the Digest are the copyright holders of that entry. Please respect that copyright and act accordingly. I especially ask that you not redistribute the ELP Digest in whole or in part without acknowledging the original source of the digest and each author. Thanks! ------------------------------ End of ELP Digest [Volume 5 Issue 9] *************************************