ELP Digest Saturday, May 20 1995 Volume 5 : Issue 13 The "Velvet Coats of Kings" Edition Today's Topics: ELP newsletter stuff Review of CDs KE Christmas Album ELP Digest (looking for Asia live material) Works Live Re: ELP Digest V5 #8 (3 items of interest) ELP at the circus ELP - English Convention 1995 and other bits Ask a Pro section of MD asks Carl Palmer Re: ELP Digest V5 #8 (Keith Emerson CD-ROM for samplers) Re: ELP Digest (re: ELP UK fan club) Lyrics for Mass? We knew it all along... Olsen held ELP back! Re: ELP Digest V5 #9 (re: Jerusalem) Technology and Composition Thoughts for the elp-digest... Re: Thoughts for the elp-digest ELP! Best Revenge, Murderock Prelude ======= Hi. Sorry for the delay between Digests. Also, I'll apologize in advance to those of you who will get this Digest in two pieces due to maximum message size limitations in your mail handler. It's become clear to me that I temprporarily have to increase the size of the Digest in order to continue making progress at clearing out the backlog of Digest material I've accumulated. Sorry but I hope you agree that the quality of material is still remarkably high for an all volunteer newsletter like ELP Digest is. On a more positive front, I'm happy to announce that I'm going to be in Santa Clara, California for a work-related conference from May 31 to June 2. (Just a few weeks from now.) A number of California-area ELP Digest readers are going out of their way to help me plan an "ELP fan dinner" in the Santa Clara/San Jose area on the evening of Friday, June 2. If you might be able to attend, please send me mail and I'll get you "in the loop" of the plans for when/where/etc. It will be great to meet more of the ELP Digest readers in person and I'm really looking forward to it. This is giving me the motivation for me to plan something like this for my "hometown" readers in the Boston, Massachusetts area this summer. Stay tuned. On with the show, - John - ------------------------------------------------------------ From: KYBDS@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 02:08:14 -0500 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ELP newsletter stuff Hi Folks! I'm new to this digest, and am currently in the process of catching up on what I can with the older issues. In the meantime, I'd like to add my two cents worth, and relate what I can about ELP. I'm a 39 y.o. professional musician and sound engineer, and it was BSS that made me switch my major in college to music. (True Story!) I've seen most of their shows in Phila, including the Brain Salad Surgery/ Live album tour, and the Pirates tour - literally the day or week after they had to drop the orchestra, due to $$ problems. I've seen the fabulous E, L & Powell show (more on that another time, if anyone wants to hear about it.) I've also seen the first shows of the following tours: "3" (at the Chestnut Cabaret in Phila., ) , ELP reunion, first show of tour at Mann Music Center (in Phila.,) and the INCREDIBLE first show of the last tour promoting the "Live At the Royal Albert Hall" album at the intimate Tower Theater in Phila. It's not much of a secret why many of their tours started in Phila: They were being packaged and promoted by Electric Factory concerts, based right here in Philly. The local music scene was pretty buzzed when they practiced/tech'ed for a week at the Tower Theater before the first show at the Mann Music center for the Black Moon/Reunion tour. If anyone's interested, there are a few good stories surrounding these shows, including stuff you would NOT believe that happened during the first "3" show at the Chestnut Cabaret... Perhaps another time. As to the origin of "Brain Salad Surgery," Greg Lake was asked in a magazine interview (Circus or Hit Parader or one of those, I'll have to dig it out of the archives!) what it meant. He said it was a gradually mutated "coded" expression that was their inside joke for oral sex. It supposedly started out at dinner once as: "Whip some skull on me!" Fertile imaginations can imagine where it came from originally, and how it evolved into "Brain Salad Surgery." Also, someone mentioned the airbrushed phallic symbol on the BSS album cover. 'nuf said. If anyone's interested, there's a review of ITHS by Bob Doershuck in the April Issue of Keyboard Magazine, and quite a few letters (including one by myself) in defense of ITHS. Everyone seems to be in agreement that it's still a wonderful album, in spite of some peoples' expectations to the contrary. (BTW: Has much been written here about Emerson's career threatening arm surgery in the fall of '93? I think it had a LOT to do with the scaled-back tunes on ITHS.) As for why they included the newer studio version of "Pictures," anyone who saw/heard this reworked version in concert would agree it was way overdue, and a nice thing to have if you couldn't afford the price of ROTM. What a gorgeous reading and re-birth of their gritty original version. It's a lot more than Korg voicings vs. Moog, let me tell ya! BTW: Does anyone know where I can get a CD of EL&Powell? I LOVE that album, but my copy is the last vinyl disk I ever bought, and I hate to play it for fear of wearing it out. Since I hear there are bonus tracks, I'm interested. Anyone? What is the name of the charity that proceeds from "Daddy" is going to? Anyone know? I heard Greg Lake on the radio one day promoting ITHS and the single, which is obviously about missing/exploited children. (Sounds like Greg's either got kids of his own, or is expanding his lyrical palette...) I have to say this is really great to find a group of knowledgeable people in this digest. It's nice knowing I'm not the only rabid fan left. Finally, there's a place for all my ELP trivia and info! I'm glad to see so many fans still out there and supporting them. Till the next time, Joe Hannigan. ------------------------------ To: John E Arnold From: Lasse Eriksson Subject: Review Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 16:06:59 +0100 (MET) If it is of any interest,, this is my very personal opion about a couple of "imports" bought from CDNOW. 1st. Live at Willterm 2 CD. It is for me a GREAT CD. It is a recording made from some american radio broadcast. So,, maybe it is something you americans allready have,, but otherwise,, Good sound, and nice versions off most of the songs. For instance, pirates is made with a lot off energy and nerve, much better than the Albert hall album. 2nd. Emerson,Lake, Palmer, Some italian concert from 92. Sound,, rather poor,, the only thing which makes it worthwhile is that from the beginning is included. Otherwise,,,,,,No ! CU Lasse.Eriksson@lanway.se ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 10:02:27 EST From: EURR49A@prodigy.com ( RANDY GARBISO) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: KE Christmas Album I was browising Tower Records two years back, and came upon and empty cd divider that had a Christmas CD by Keith Emerson, the store could not order it or had any info about it. Can anyone help me? I'm new to cyberspace and just found your ELP Digest, great thing, this. I've been a fan for many, many years. Please put this message in the digest so your readers may be able to help me locate this disc. Also, if you haven't received mt earlier request, please add me to your mail list for the digest. Thank you, be safe, and be well. Randy eurr49a@prodigy.com ------------------------------ From: "brule" To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ELP Digest (looking for Asia live material) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 95 12:04:18 -0500 I am desperately looking for a quality live recording from either of Asia's first two tours, (aside from the Japan show with Greg Lake on vocals). I have several shows - all of which sound absolutely terrible. I know of two bootlegs that were once available on vinyl: "Only Time Will Tell" and something with the word "Science" in it, like "The Art of Science", or close to that. Does ANYONE have these or have access to them - or ANY show for that matter from these tours!?!?!? I am willing to buy, beg, borrow, steal, trade - whatever, to come up with a reasonable quality recording from either of these tours. I know that Asia professionaly videotaped and recorded many of the shows on the Alpha tour for future use, but nothing has ever surfaced. IS THERE A SOUNDBOARD RECORDING ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET!?!?!?!!!!!! I look forward to hearing from anyone who can help. brule002@maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 10:00:00 +0001 (EST) From: frank a conte Subject: Works Live To: Jarnold I found a discount CD of Works Live. This is a two disc special. I must say that I was completely unimpressed with Disc 1. What a shame! What an aweful choice of material. However, Disc 2, which I presume was the added special had better stuff: a good version of Pictures and a decent version of Tank. Abbandon's Bolero is prime cut stuff. I though the orchestra would be more involved with the trio, overall. I would entertain a debate on the merits of this CD. from the desktop of: -------------------------------- Frank Conte fconte@world.std.com Great Eastern Technologies, Inc. East Boston, MA 02128-3042 "Playing above the rim!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /\//\/\//\\/\/\/\/\/\//\ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 95 16:49:27 EST From: "Plotczyk, Steve" To: John E Arnold Subject: Re: ELP Digest V5 #8 John, I have 3 items of interest for you below. 1) MARK MANCINA: Mark Mancina is doing the music for the new revived "Outer Limits" show. 2) EMERSON CD-ROM: Invision Interactive began shipping 3-23-95. They shipped hundreds on the 1st day. 3) EMERSON SOLO CD: I finally got around to my latest issue (3-31-95) of Goldmine (which had been lying around for a couple of days). I saw an add from Worldwide CD (312-665-0030) on page 11. The Japanese version of "The Best of ELP" was being offered with 1 extra bonus track (Close To Home - live version). But when I asked about it, there was a mix up and the bonus track was not on the CD! So this is on hold while they check into it. I also asked about the new Emerson CD and they already had them in stock! I got it 2 days later on 3-25-95. Below is a summary of the CD and my 1st impression follows: KEITH EMERSON - CHANGING STATES [46:21] AMP-CD 026 AMP Records PO Box 387 London N22 6SF UK Keith Emerson - Keyboards Keith Emerson - Piano 1. Shelter From The Rain [3:36] (Keith Emerson, Kevin Gilbert, Mark Bonilla) Mark Bonilla - Guitars Gary Cirimelli - Vocals Kevin Gilbert - Bass Kevin Gilbert - Drums Kevin Gilbert - Choir Director 2. Another Frontier [6:48] (Keith Emerson) Mike Barsimanto - Drums Tim Pierce - Guitar Jerry Watts - Bass 3. Ballade [4:29] (Keith Emerson) Kevin Gilbert - Nylon Guitar 4. The Band Keeps Playing [5:19] (Keith Emerson, Kevin Gilbert, Mark Bonilla) Mark Bonilla - Guitars Gary Cirimelli - Vocals Kevin Gilbert - Bass Kevin Gilbert - Drums 5. Summertime [3:44] (Gershwin) Mike Barsimanto - Drums Jerry Watts - Bass 6. The Church [5:12] (Keith Emerson) Mike Barsimanto - Drums Tim Pierce - Guitar Jerry Watts - Bass 7. Interlude [1:34] (Keith Emerson) 8. Montagues And Capulets [2:04] (Serge Prokofiev) Mike Barsimanto - Drums Tim Pierce - Guitar Jerry Watts - Bass 9. Abaddon's Bolero (Orchestral Version) [8:07] (Keith Emerson) Kevin Gilbert - Tuba Solo London Philharmonic Orchestra / Conductor - John Mayer 10. The Band Keeps Playing (Aftershock Mix) [5:20] (Keith Emerson, Kevin Gilbert, Mark Bonilla) Mark Bonilla - Guitars Gary Cirimelli - Vocals Kevin Gilbert - Bass Kevin Gilbert - Drums front cover insert: page 1 - picture of Emerson page 2 to 3 - back catalog including Christmas Album (AMP-CD 018) page 4 - write up by Kevin Gilbert back cover insert: tracklisting, credits, and another picture of Emerson Impressions: 1. Shelter From The Rain Reminiscent of 3 "To the Power of 3" style songs. Male lead vocal with female backup vocals. 2. Another Frontier This is "Changing States" (redone by ELP on Black Moon). This version seems gentler with more church organ in it. 3. Ballade This is "Close to Home" (also redone by ELP on Black Moon). This version has orchestral strings and Nylon Guitar added. 4. The Band Keeps Playing Also reminiscent of 3 "To the Power of 3" style songs. With male lead vocal and female backup vocals. At one point you can hear the RAP effect - girl goes "Wooo"..."Ahh"...etc. 5. Summertime What would have happened if the Nice had done "Summertime" and Keith quoted "Hang on to a Dream" from within it? Well there's no Hardin quote in this song but the Piano, Bass, Drum trio is certainly reminiscent of that era of the Nice. 6. The Church This is a beefed up version of the movie title theme song. But this one really rocks! 7. Interlude Another beautiful yet all too short solo piano piece. The "A Blade of Grass" (Black Moon bonus track) of this album. 8. Montagues And Capulets This is "Romeo and Juliet" (also redone by ELP on Black Moon). This version has guitar in it. Is this what Keith meant when he spoke of Hedrix in relation to this song? 9. Abaddon's Bolero (Orchestral Version) A studio orchestral version with the Moog only appearing at the end. 10. The Band Keeps Playing (Aftershock Mix) Similar to track 4 but without the RAP effect. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1995 19:02:39 U From: "Brian OSullivan" Subject: ELP at the circus To: "John Arnold" ELP at the circus I took my son to Ringling Bros. circus over the weekend & was pleasantly surprised to hear the band play an ELP-inspired version of "Hoedown" early in the show. I half expected the ringmaster to break into "Karn Evil 9 1st Impression, Part 2" after that!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:23:30 GMT From: Steve@sthall.demon.co.uk (Steve Hall) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ELP - English Convention 1995 and other bits A while back someone asked If any British readers of the Digest had heared anything from the supposed ELP Convention that was to take place. Well this morning a letter landed on my doormat from the organisers so here goes: GOOD NEWS THE FIRST UK CONVENTION FOR FANS OF E.L.P. TWO live bands performing the music of ELP - Works3 and Noddy's Puncture Instrument Demos Official Merchandise Auction of ELP memorabilia Quiz Screening of rare film/video of ELP A invitation has been issued to Keith, Greg and Carl to attend the conventi= on but it is not known whether they can attend due to commitments but they have stated in the past that they would if they could. For people interested the event details follow: Cost 12 pounds (UK Sterling) Time/Date Saturday 9th September 1995 (12:30-22:30) Venue - tbc in Birmingham UK Cheques should be made payable to : Trilogy and sent to ELP Convention 28 Stonebanks Manor Road Walton on Thames Surrey KT12 2QE BAD NEWS Despite various romours which may have reached you, ELP will NOT be touring during 1995 and we (the organisers) felt it would be a shame not to mark the passing of their 25th anniversary without some special event. Presumably this is inside information as - MORE GOOD NEWS Keith Emerson has release a new solo album called "Changing States" on M15 records. Containing Montagues and Capulets, The Church, Abbadons Bolero ELP as a whole plan to release a FULL-LENGTH video of one of the 3 nights of the 1992 Royal Albert Hall concerts later this year. Please be October 3rd I might be seen on TV! Please note I have no connection with the organisers of this event, I have just transcribed the contents (with editing) of a letter received today. Any queries should be made to the above address and not myself. -- Steve Hall ---- Come and see the show - its rock'n'roll! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:26:02 -0500 (EST) From: To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Ask a Pro section of MD asks Carl Palmer This is a recent article I read in the Modern Drummer magazine. Huey Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------- Huey Wilson hwilson@stsci.edu http://samvax:8000/hwilson/drum.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Modern Drummer May 95 Page 16 Column "Ask A Pro" The is a column that features questions asked of the pros. Q. What equipment did you use on the ELP release BLACK MOON - particularly on the title track and on PAPER BLOOD? Bertrand Kolecza Porto Alegre, Brazil A. For the BLACK MOON album I struck a kit of Remo drums consisting of two 14x22 bass drums, 8x12 and 12x14 rack toms, 16x16 and 16x18 floor toms, and a 4x14 Noble & Cooley Zildjian Alloy snare drum. I say "struck" rather than "played," because when we recorded the album, all of my drums were filled with foam and then triggered with Simmons triggers. That's right, I had no acoustic drums at all-only sampled sounds. I had made all the samples myself over time, so it's hard to say where they all came from. To record the album in this manner, O also employed two Akai S1100 samplers linked together, a Yamaha DMP7 mixing desk, an Akai ME35T interface, a Yamaha DTS70 interface, a MIDI selector pedal, three Simmons pads, and four Dauz pads. The balance of my drumkit includes bass drum pedals, a hi-hat, and a Collarlock rack system, all from Drum Workshop. I've played Paiste cymbals for over twenty years, and my setup now includes a 22" ride, a 20" Dark Crash, a 20" Light Crash, and an 18" Fast Crash-all from the Paiste series-along with 13" hi-hats to my left and five-year old 14" 3000 series fixed hi-hats to my right. For effects, I use an old 20" Novo China and three Ice Bells. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 95 10:13:43 EST From: "Plotczyk, Steve" To: John E Arnold Subject: Re: ELP Digest V5 #8 (Keith Emerson CD-ROM for samplers) Concerning Invision Interactive's "Keith Emerson" CD-ROM... Now that I have "The World's Most Dangerous Synth and Organ", I found some errors that crept in from my poorly copied booklet. For your convenience the more accurate version is listed below: A 01 LUCKY MAN SOLO 1 Three square wave oscillators with filter sweep PROGRAMS 20 SAMPLES 15 9.74MB A 02 LUCKY MAN SOLO 2 Three square waves sampled with less filter PROGRAMS 21 SAMPLES 16 8.49MB A 03 LUCKY MAN GLIDES A variety of portamento riffs from Lucky Man PROGRAMS 7 SAMPLES 8 4.43MB A 04 PICTURES AT AN EXHIBITION Detuned sound with slow resonant filter sweep PROGRAMS 7 SAMPLES 14 9.53MB A 05 TARKUS GLIDE Sawtooth waves sampled with short portamento; includes riff PROGRAMS 17 SAMPLES 19 8.02MB A 06 TARKUS LEAD Sawtooth waves without portamento PROGRAMS 15 SAMPLES 19 7.69MB A 07 AQUATARKUS QUACK CHORD Tuned oscillator chord at 1, 4 and 5 intervals; includes riff PROGRAMS 16 SAMPLES 18 4.28MB A 08 AQUATARKUS QUACK SOLO Sawtooth wave with closing resonant filter attack PROGRAMS 14 SAMPLES 18 1.47MB A 09 TARKUS MASS Two oscillators tuned to a fifth interval with resonance; includes riff PROGRAMS 16 SAMPLES 22 6.86MB B 01 TRILOGY WITH DELAYED VIBRATO Sawtooth wave with resonance and delayed vibrato; includes riff PROGRAMS 13 SAMPLES 23 7.16MB B 02 FROM THE BEGINNING SOLO 1 Layered triangle & pulse waves. Unlooped, spring blip at end; inc. riff PROGRAMS 25 SAMPLES 16 7.06MB B 03 FROM THE BEGINNING SOLO 2 Looped wersion of above sound; includes riff PROGRAMS 25 SAMPLES 18 5.16MB B 04 ABADDON'S BOLERO (DRY) Sawtooth wave tuned to major triad; includes riff PROGRAMS 15 SAMPLES 10 2.59MB B 05 ABADDON'S BOLERO (WET) Sawtooth wave tuned to major triad, sampled with spring reverb;inc. riff PROGRAMS 15 SAMPLES 10 2.20MB B 06 HOEDOWN Portamento octave notes; includes Freakout riff PROGRAMS 18 SAMPLES 6 3.82MB B 07 KARN EVIL 9 FIRST IMPRESSION "Welcome Back" filter sample and hold with stereo pan sweeps PROGRAMS 20 SAMPLES 2 4.65MB B 08 KARN EVIL 9 THIRD IMPRESSION Brassy sound with filter attack PROGRAMS 13 SAMPLES 21 7.75MB B 09 KARN EVIL 9 THIRD IMPRESSION Analog sequenced riff with stereo pan sweeps PROGRAMS 11 SAMPLES 2 7.51MB B 10 KARN EVIL 9 BASS Fat resonance bass sound PROGRAMS 14 SAMPLES 22 6.50MB C 01 POLY RESONANT SAW General purpose synth samples with spring reverb PROGRAMS 14 SAMPLES 22 5.94MB C 02 POLY RESONANT SAW 2 Karn Evil Bass and Poly Resonant saw layered PROGRAMS 14 SAMPLES 36 10.22MB C 03 SAMPLE & HOLD One slow S&H of resonant filter; 1 fast S&H of pitch, filter and rate PROGRAMS 26 SAMPLES 2 7.78MB C 04 WHITE NOISE SWEEPS Noise generator with resonant filter sweeps PROGRAMS 21 SAMPLES 2 5.16MB C 05 SYNTH RIFFS All the synth riffs in one place PROGRAMS 8 SAMPLES 12 8.89MB Organ D 01 CLASSIC C3 WITH PERCUSSION 1 3 drawbars & 3rd harm. perc., slow & fast Leslie; used on Tarkus, others PROGRAMS 11 SAMPLES 82 8.14MB D 02 CLASSIC C3 WITH PERCUSSION 2 As above with additional riffs and glissandos PROGRAMS 18 SAMPLES 88 9.47MB D 03 CLASSIC C3 3 3 drawbars, no percussion, slow & fast Leslie; used on Tarkus & others PROGRAMS 8 SAMPLES 82 9.82MB D 04 CLASSIC C3 4 As above, layered with separate third harmonic percussion samples PROGRAMS 10 SAMPLES 112 10.30MB D 05 ALL STOPS OUT WITH PERCUSSION 1 All stops out plus third harmonic percussion, slow and fast Leslie PROGRAMS 8 SAMPLES 84 9.56MB D 06 ALL STOPS OUT WITH PERCUSSION 2 As above, includes extra riffs and glissandos PROGRAMS 16 SAMPLES 88 10.41MB E 01 FOUR DRAWBARS WITH VIBRATO Var. with 3rd harm. perc., slow & fast Leslie; sampled with C3 vib. on PROGRAMS 12 SAMPLES 42 10.36MB E 02 PAPER BLOOD Two drawbars with fast Leslie and C3 vibrato PROGRAMS 8 SAMPLES 42 9.85MB E 03 PAPER BLOOD OCTAVES As above, played in octaves; includes riff PROGRAMS 14 SAMPLES 40 7.62MB E 04 LOWER MANUAL Two drawbars on the lower manual with slow Leslie PROGRAMS 8 SAMPLES 44 7.65MB E 05 LOWER MANUAL WITH VIBRATO Two drawbars on the lower manual with slow Leslie and C3 vibrato PROGRAMS 6 SAMPLES 38 9.74MB E 06 TREMOLO AND VIBRATO 8-drawbar variation with fast Leslie and C3 vibrato PROGRAMS 7 SAMPLES 42 8.36MB E 07 THIRD HARMONIC PERCUSSION Just the percussion drawbar with fast decay PROGRAMS 9 SAMPLES 40 1.51MB F 01 ORGAN RIFFS AND GLISSES Various examples of Kieth playing PROGRAMS 30 SAMPLES 30 8.61MB Combinations F 02 ORGAN SPLIT 1 Lower Manual/Classic split PROGRAMS 3 SAMPLES 62 8.20MB F 03 ORGAN SPLIT 2 Lower Manual/All Stops Out split PROGRAMS 3 SAMPLES 64 7.64MB F 04 SYNTH/ORGAN SPLIT 1 Karn Evil 9 Bass and Classic C3 split PROGRAMS 3 SAMPLES 54 7.85MB F 05 SYNTH/ORGAN SPLIT 2 Karn Evil 9 First Impression "Welcome Back" S&H plus Classic Organ PROGRAMS 2 SAMPLES 36 9.82MB F 06 SYNTH/ORGAN SPLIT 3 Hoedown plus Classic Organ with percussion PROGRAMS 3 SAMPLES 46 10.28MB F 07 SYNTH/ORGAN SPLIT 4 Tarkus Classic Organ and Tarkus Glide Lead split PROGRAMS 2 SAMPLES 28 6.37MB G 01 SYNTH LAYER 1 Aquatarkus Quack chord and solo layered "like the record" PROGRAMS 5 SAMPLES 35 4.88MB G 02 SYNTH LAYER 2 Karn Evil 9 Third Impression lead and Trilogy lead, layered PROGRAMS 9 SAMPLES 38 10.39MB G 03 SYNTH LAYER 3 Tarkus Mass and Poly Resonant Saw, layered PROGRAMS 8 SAMPLES 36 10.06MB G 04 SYNTH LAYER 4 Tarkus Mass and Aquatarkus Quack Chord, layered PROGRAMS 7 SAMPLES 38 9.38MB G 05 SYNTH LAYER 5 Tarkus Lead and Poly Resonant Saw, layered PROGRAMS 5 SAMPLES 30 10.08MB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 09:16 BST From: s03smith@ucsalf.ac.uk (Stuart Smith) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Re: ELP Digest (re: ELP UK fan club) John, after my previous mail sent to you i recieved some information regarding the uk's elp fanclub going into liquidation. No-one will recieve any monies or products now, BUT several people are arranging a convention in birmingham, england in September, i am happy to mail the address to ask for information to anybody. just tell them to drop me a line Stuart Smith ------------------------------ From: informe@best.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 02:33:11 -0700 To: John E Arnold Subject: Lyrics for Mass? Does anybody have the lyrics to _Mass_ from Tarkus? I remember picking out the melody on music-store MiniMoogs years ago... Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:20:09 -0400 To: arnold@iii.net From: st94f365@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (A. Radder) Subject: We knew it all along... Olsen held ELP back! >Q: What about Long Black Coat attracted you so much that you wanted to do > your own version of it? The music or the message? >A: The story. Dylan tells a story in the song and I liked the vivid > language he's worked with. originally I wanted to arrange the song in a > way so that it could fill a whole side of an LP. I wanted to tell Dylan's > story again but by musical means. > >Q: How far did you get with that idea? >A: Very far. I took the song into the studio and worked on it for quite a > long time. In the end I had a musical concept, developed around "Man in > the Black Coat". > >Q: A sort of Tarkus based on a Bob Dylan song? >A: Yes, a sort of western, where the script is by Dylan and I'm the > director, if you like. Unfortunately, Keith Olsen only wanted to have the > script and not the film. He didn't want anything that looked even > remotely like a "concept" on this album. Well I for one am VERY disappointed that Olsen didn't want ELP to do a "concept" on ITHS. What does he call "Pictures" ??? Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? We could have had another great long piece to listen to, but I suppose that Olsen didn't think that would sell. Well, Mr. Olsen (and whoever else is responsible), it's time to wake up and smell the coffee... ELP are NO LONGER a commercially successful band. You will sell LESS records if you continue to try to ignore the wishes of their fans (notably the ones who subscribe to this digest!). If your only market is the long-term fans, then give us what we want! (especially since it is also what Emerson wants!) How can we convince them to release this "Man in the Long Black Coat" long-form concept? I would LOVE to hear what a new ELP epic sounds like... -Aaron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:33:11 -0400 From: Daniel Barrett To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Re: ELP Digest V5 #9 (re: Jerusalem) >[ Editor's note: In case it hasn't been made obvious, the hymn "Jerusalem" > pervades a lot of British culture. Indeed. Check out Monty Python's sketch, "Buying a Bed," for a particularly humorous rendition. :-) Dan ------------------------------ From: SandyS1@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:10:16 -0400 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Technology and Composition Steve Plotczyk wrote: >It seems to me that as technology has advanced the interaction that >musicians had with their instruments has been replaced by a cold >computer-like interface of endless pushbutton menus. [...] >I hope that someday someone engineers an ergonomic keyboard with emphasis >on letting the musician be as expressive as possible instead of making >the musician conform to the restrictions and limitations of mass production >economy. The sad fact is that the engineers have done just that, and they've done it for years. In doing so, however, they made it easy to go the "push-button menu" route as well. Both the Korg Wavestation and the Roland JD-800 are wonderful, ergonomic keyboards in their own way. I've played the 800 only briefly, but I own Wavestation #428, and I have yet to find a keyboard that gives you the range of expressive possibilities and real-time control of sound that it does. In reality, it's no harder to program than a modular moog, and musically, you can do more with it (with the noteable exception of portamento & X-mod, but these are more than made up for in other places). I've done both. I love the sound of a Moog, but I love the Wavestation, too. The problem is that the Moog comes out of the box sounding like... nothing. You have to get into its guts just to make the thing generate a tone. With the WS, all you have to do is plug it in and you have wonderful, rich timbres. Frankly, musicians have become lazy, and the public less demanding. In fact, the public demands less. They are satisfied with a guy getting up and putting on the "Midnight Run" patch on the WS and holding it for 30 minutes like that was something original. Keith hinted at what was possible in "Changing States" and bits of "Black Moon", which were covered with Wavestation (and several other great keyboards, I'm not a Korg fanatic), but neither he, nor Will Alexander the alleged programming genuis, nor the producer took it very far, and, on ItHS, they took a few steps back. If people wanted, they could make very mind-bending music on today's machinery, unhampered by the restrictions of yesterday (tuning problems, lack of voices, hissy machines, etc.). But they don't. Simple as that. To cheesily quote: "All this machinery/making modern music/can still be open-hearted/not so coldly charted/it's really just a question of your honesty." Technology is a double-edged sword. It makes things impossible possible, but it makes the easy way easier. Also, re: the "Eruption" fingering: consider 5215124124 or 5214125124, I find they open the hand less and I can keep the ostinato going longer, but everybody has different responses... Just a thought. Fellow on-reflectioner Bjorn wrote, quoting Geir: >The bass riff and its unison counterpart in horns and guitar and keyboards >and even song play an important part of GGs music. >(BAD: Geir here lists some early songs of GG that is typical of this. Anyone >having good examples of this in ELP? Knife Edge?) "Living Sin" reminds me of this, also matches a more contrapuntal style (lines against lines) mentioned below. >* the interplay between instruments so that the complete piece becomes more >than the sum of its parts (late 60s - early 70s). >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) Quite a lot of it... "Take a Pebble" one of the first and most seamless. "Trilogy" also comes to mind immediately. "Fugue" from "The Endless Enigma" uses it quite obviously, but the "Endless Enigma" bits use it much more subtly, and successfully (IMHO), though I enjoy both. >* the inference of chords from the instrumental lines and not as a >schematic (early 70s). >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP? Geir has told me >several times that Emerson is one of the very few rock musicians who know >how to compose, and not only "making tunes") ELP tends to use chords much more, but not in a "schematic," by which I assume Geir means a set chord progression, like a Gershwin tune, which is repeated for the length of the song. Most of Karn Evil 9 fits, as does the first part of Trilogy (uses a progression, but is broken up and varies, then goes to the ostinatos later). Quite a lot of Tarkus. Bits of "Endless Enigma" as mentioned above. "Living Sin." >* the many notes played (early 70s). >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) "Too many notes," they said to Mozart. Man, just about every thing in ELP has many notes. "Eruption," "Take a Pebble," "Trilogy," "Tank," "Karn Evil 9 (all)," take your pick, name a dozen more. Maybe not quite up to GG level, but missing only by a percentage point--especially when they had 40% fewer people than GG! Of course, it's hard to compare GG and ELP. ELP, while utilizing lots of the same devices as GG prove why the same ingredients in different proportions and different cooking methods make such radically different dishes in cuisine: the effect is "Big, Hard Driving, Symphonic, Classic Prog Rock" (much of the time, though not as ponderous as Yes would get), while GG is nimble, contrapuntal prog rock. Of course, ELP could be nimble ("Karn Evil 9, 2nd Impression"), and GG could be powerful ("Valedictory"). So take all generalizations with a can of salt. Two things ELP did lots that GG seemed not to do much... ELP had the ostinato bassline (Eruption, last two parts of Trilogy) and used quartal (4ths) harmony with wide-ranging melody (Most of Tarkus), while GG's harmony tended to be tertial (3rds) or arose from wicked counterpoint. Honestly, though, I've not analyzed GG as carefully as ELP, so someone may provide good counterexamples. Man, I gotta go back and listen to all of this now. Aw, shucks. :-) -Sandy Smith ------------------------------ From: Jim Smith Subject: Thoughts for the elp-digest... To: arnold@iii.net (John Arnold) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:17:21 -0800 (PDT) Hi, everyone. I've really enjoyed the several recent threads in the digest. I wish I had more time these days to participate in these discussions, but I just don't right now. I'll try to contribute a bit here, though. William D. Gagliani wrote: >In Keith's song Playing for Keeps, in which I mentioned a Chance/Dance >connection to Thomas Howard's book on secular humanism, another lyric >reads, in part: "Life is its own reward/we can only guess what's more?" >It also utilizes the phrase "touch and go," but I don't know if this >use predates the ELPowell song of that title. "Playing for Keeps" predates ELPowell. >This Best of KE collection >is a Japanese import and all liner notes are in Japanese, except for song >titles. I'd love to know which film Playing for Keeps was in, if anyone >can tell me. It's from Murderrock, if I remember correctly. The theme from the movie is essentially the same as "Playing For Keeps" without vocals. >It's not on Nighthawks or Inferno (I have those) ... I would >also love to know what other films Keith has scored. I'm pretty sure >he did one or two more Dario Argento films, but I'm don't know which ones. I'm sure others can answer better than I, but here's a shot at it: Dario Argento films: Inferno, Murderrock, The Church (La Chiesa) Other films: Nighthawks, Harmagedeon (Japanese animated movie). (The forthcoming FAQ from Maureen will contain the address of David Terralavoro, the editor of "Fanzine for the Common Man," who, among other things, has been working on a complete discography (a BOOK, actually!) for several years.) >I'd like to do a breakdown of the Playing for Keeps >lyrics, but I can't make out enough of them and there is no lyrics >sheet. Here's my shot at it: Playing For Keeps Keith Emerson Life is its own reward, we can only guess what's there facing the future unsure it's so easy to get crushed in the whole affair sensing your time is at hand tempting the fate is a way to the promised land The ending concealed will soon be revealed and as the pages turn a plot begins to grow laying low, take it slow, it will grow don't you know this is a timeless age independence is the way each with his own serenade making music that the world had refused to play Taking a chance on a dance partners in crime waltz away in another time the passion runs deep playing for keeps and as the music plays a song begins to flow laying low, touch and go, it's all show don't you know... < instrumental break > ...now we know, it's all show touch and go, touch and go ------------------------------ Sarah Ann Jones wrote: >This information comes from American's in-flight magazine, >"American Way" (Feb 15, 1995) in the section describing the >various audio programs available. P. 132 has the listings for >Channel 2--"Flightline" which includes in its second portion >a bit from "CurtCo's Home Theater Technology", described as >"a new magazine featuring total coverage of the home entertainment >phenomenon". Greg's piece is their 1st contribution--no mention of >what the bit consists of. I haven't heard this, but I'd reckon a guess that it has to do with ELP's use of Dolby Surround in their recent recording of "Pictures." Craig Koukol wrote: >To those that replied to my query about the origins of BSS-The Single, >thanks for all the information. I've been wanting to say that nobody mentioned that it was also inside the first US edition of BSS-The Album. That's where I got my copy. This first edition of BSS also had a different set of photos of E,L&P in the enclosed poster. >I also want to clarify my comments in >Vol.5/#5 re "Jerusalem" as an ELP "masterwork"---I didn't mean to imply >that I thought that ELP had authored this old hymn (for proof, just look >at my sig!); "master performance" would have been a better wording. My >point was that if ELP were devoted to promoting atheism, they wouldn't >have performed a song like this with such great effect. I initially interpreted their grand, glorious arrangement of this song, appearing almost to promote a martial sense of violence defending the stand that Christ walked in England, as a parody of that position, in other words, ironic humor. I mean, here's a song about the prince of love, with military terms and a call to arms, followed immediately by Toccata, one of the most deliciously _violent_ pieces of music I've ever heard, and then echoed later in the album in Karn Evil 9. I interpreted the whole album's sense of violence as, in a way, a denunciation of that violence and righteousness for righteouness' sake. I don't know if this was the intended message or not, though, of course. Pure speculation. >long ago I once heard all of >Tarkus played on an FM station while driving in central Illinois; it was >immediately followed by a cut from the now defunct English-progfolk group >Steeleye Span. Quite an experience! As noted earlier in the digest, Keith Emerson played a Steeleye Span song as one of his "Top Twelve" songs on a radio show in 1972. Also, for what it's worth, Steeleye, like ELP, have gone through several phases of getting together and disbanding. Their most recent album that I know of was released about three years ago. They really are consummate musicians in their genre, and have a highly-developed style which includes wonderful instrumental counterpoints to the main melodies, and a lot of rock punch. I highly recommend their "Parcel of Rogues," "All Around My Hat," "Rocket Cottage," and "Live at Last" albums to interested parties. "Live at Last" has a lot of punch. Steve Plotczyk (Hi, Steve!) wrote: >7) Eruption Ostinato Fingering > >I saw a description of the left-hand bass fingering of the >1st Eruption ostinato somewhere but it was different from the one I use. >This is the fingering I use for all 3 ostinatos: > >5 3 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 4 > >F2 Bb2 Eb3 Bb2 Ab3 Eb3 Bb2 Fb3 Cb2 Gb2 Shouldn't this be: F2 Bb2 Eb3 Bb2 Ab3 Eb3 Bb2 F3 C2 G2 ? ---------- I use this fingering: 5 3 1 3 1 3 5 1 3 4 But then, my fingers are pretty short, and I can't actually keep this up very long at tempo. Peter C.S. Adams wrote: >Griffin Video has released "Pictures at an Exhibition" by Emmerson [sic] >Lake + Palmer, a 45-minute color hi-fi video (it says stereo but it sounds >mono to me). Recorded at the Lyceum in London (c. 1970?) it was probably >intended for broadcast because it does not seem to have the quality of film, >but that of a Betacam. This was actually released originally in theaters back around 1972 or so, as "Rock-N-Roll Your Eyes." I remember seeing it at a local college then. Janell Duxbury wrote: >In the meantime, I am curious to know if Keith Emerson's LA CHIESA includes >any classical cover versions (Bach maybe?). If so, I need all the >discographical details. Someone told me it is probably a film soundtrack. La Chiesa, also called "The Church," is a movie by Dario Argento, with soundtrack by Keith Emerson. A waay cool remake of the main theme from it is also available on Emerson's recent UK solo album, "Changing States," available from, among other places, Ranjit Padmanabhan (ranjit@netcom.com). One of the pieces in the soundtrack is Prelude 24 (by J.S. Bach, from A Well Tempered Clavier) bjorn-are.davidsen@s.hk.telenor.no wrote: >Re: E(LP) as composers! > > My challenge is: Are there anyone with a musical background out there who >can put ELP in the proper context to Geirs analysis? Of course, Geir just may >take the time to do this himself, however I wouldn't count too much on it, >as he is VERY busy. An interesting challenge. I wish I had time to do it. I'd suggest Blair Pethel's master thesis "Keith Emerson: The Emergence and Growth Of A Style" as one excellent source of information of this sort. >The first appearance, as I see it (or hear it) towards progressive music was > >* the utilization of the bass riff (middle-to-late 60s). > >With this device, the bass played a dialogue with the singer, and melody >and bass riff were equally important. The use of counterpoint had >(unconsciously) grabbed its place within rock. The notion of song could not >longer be used. > >(BAD: Geir here lists some early songs of GG that is typical of this. Anyone >having good examples of this in ELP? Knife Edge?) Knife Edge is a good example, but for the best early example of unison bass-rhythm counterpoint with vocal melody in early ELP, I'd point at "Living Sin" from "Trilogy." >* the interplay between instruments so that the complete piece becomes more >than the sum of its parts (late 60s - early 70s). > >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) It's all over the place. I guess I'd pick "The Endless Enigma" (again from "Trilogy") as a strong example. >GG also more and more used this to build up pieces. The first one was >Prologue, Proclamation is an obvious example, and the 2nd side of TMP >carries this to a skilled interplay between voices and instruments. The >albums of Free Hand and Interview are filled to the brim with this >continual shift in emphasis so that you cannot hum one instrumental line >alone; that does not make sense. > >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) Well, ELP only has one voice, and are very instrument-oriented. I'd suggest perhaps "Jerusalem" as an example of this, but again, counterpoint and complex interplay is intrinsic to ELP's early music. >* the use of dynamic build-ups, sudden stops and shifts in volume, >intensity, velocity (late 60s - early 70s). Look at "The Gnome" from "Pictures..." or even the whole piece. >* the inference of chords from the instrumental lines and not as a >schematic (early 70s). > >This trait characterizes Gentle Giant more than any other group. They very >carefully planned their compositions using horizontal movements in various >instruments to decide movements in other instruments rather than vertical >decisions out of chord schematics. > >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP? Geir has told me >several times that Emerson is one of the very few rock musicians who know >how to compose, and not only "making tunes") Sure, again, it's all over the place. It's subtle, but, for example, much of the organ work in Karn Evil 9 is outlining of chords that aren't expressed directly, or interplay between several subtle lines. And then there are the fugues, such as the beginning of KE9, or the fugue from "The Endless Enigma." There are several beautiful examples in "Pirates" as well. >* the many notes played (early 70s). > >No other groups play so much as Gentle Giant, so much different, and with >such a precision. Even the slow pieces contain an impressive amount of >notes pr bar. > >(BAD: Anyone having good examples of this in ELP?) Most of the non-Lake-dominant ("NLD" :-> ) ELP pieces have high note density. For a "slow" piece with high note density, I'd suggest "Take A Pebble." >* other compositional traits. > >Can you add some important compositional traits to the discussion? * Use of large intervals (such as fourths, tritones, and fifths) as melodic and harmonic material. (ex: Tarkus, Pirates, among many others) * Use of dissonance and polytonal harmonies (ex: "Stones of Years" from "Tarkus," climaxes of KE9 and "Living Sin.") * Use of complex and shifting rhythms and polyrhythms (ex: Tarkus, "The Three Fates.") I could go on, if I had more time. I'd like to hear more discussions along these lines. Finally, I want to thank Mary Ann Burns for providing the "Being 50 Blues" interview of Keith. Although the tone of that interview was somewhat negative, it seems like a lot of that negativity was provided by the interviewer. have a Nice day, - Jim Smith smithj@sr.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 05 Apr 95 16:59:03 EDT From: "Plotczyk, Steve" To: Jim Smith Subject: Re: Thoughts for the elp-digest Jim Smith (Hi, Jim!) wrote: >Steve Plotczyk (Hi, Steve!) wrote: > >>7) Eruption Ostinato Fingering >> >>I saw a description of the left-hand bass fingering of the >>1st Eruption ostinato somewhere but it was different from the one I use. >>This is the fingering I use for all 3 ostinatos: >> >>5 3 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 4 >> >>F2 Bb2 Eb3 Bb2 Ab3 Eb3 Bb2 Fb3 Cb2 Gb2 > >Shouldn't this be: > F2 Bb2 Eb3 Bb2 Ab3 Eb3 Bb2 F3 C2 G2 ? > ---------- > >I use this fingering: > 5 3 1 3 1 3 5 1 3 4 > >But then, my fingers are pretty short, and I can't actually keep this up >very long at tempo. According to both the Tarkus book and the 6-92 Keyboard magazine Eruption sheet music, these notes are definitely flatted. My fingers are long enough to play the CGCE chord from the "Take A Pebble" ad lib section, but playing these Eruption ostinatos is also a great way to do stretching exercises. I can keep this up at tempo, as long as I slow my tape deck down! Bjorn Are Davidsen (Hi, Bjorn!) wrote: >David is out with a new ELP Newsletter (2 pages)! > >Lots of interesting news, even if none on ELP... > >David does, however, list Keith's "Iron Man" music >episodes and Greg Lake tour dates from December. Coordinating my information with David Terralavoro's, I came up with this list: 09-25-94 (unknown) 10-02-94 "DATA IN CHAOS OUT" 10-09-94 "SILENCE MY COMPANION, DEATH MY DESTINATION" 10-16-94 "THE GRIM REAPER WEARS A TEFLON COAT" 10-23-94 "REJOICE! I AM ULTIMO, THY DELIVERER" 10-30-94 "DATA IN CHAOS OUT" 11-06-94 (unknown) "THE ORIGIN OF THE MANDARIN" 11-13-94 (unknown) "THE DEFECTION OF HAWKEYE" 11-20-94 (unknown) 11-27-94 "THE ORIGIN OF IRON MAN" Part 1 12-04-94 "IRON MAN TO THE SECOND POWER" Part 1 12-11-94 "AND THE SEA SHALL GIVE UP ITS DEAD" 12-18-94 "SILENCE MY COMPANION, DEATH MY DESTINATION" 12-25-94 "THE ORIGIN OF THE MANDARIN" 01-01-95 (unknown) 01-08-95 (not shown - Luekemia telethon) 01-15-95 "THE ORIGIN OF IRON MAN" Part 2 01-22-95 "IRON MAN TO THE SECOND POWER" Part 1 01-29-95 "IRON MAN TO THE SECOND POWER" Part 2 02-05-95 "THE WEDDING OF IRON MAN" 02-12-95 "THE DEFECTION OF HAWKEYE" 02-19-95 "REJOICE! I AM ULTIMO, THY DELIVERER" 02-26-95 "ENEMY WITHOUT, ENEMY WITHIN" 03-05-95 "DATA IN CHAOS OUT" 03-12-95 "AND THE SEA SHALL GIVE UP ITS DEAD" 03-19-95 "SILENCE MY COMPANION, DEATH MY DESTINATION" 03-26-95 (unknown) 04-02-95 "THE WEDDING OF IRON MAN" Can anyone fill in the blanks for 09-25-94, 01-01-95, and 03-26-95? I also know 2 from 11-06-94, 11-13-94, and 11-20-94 but not the 3rd one or when the 3rd one was broadcast with respect to the other 2. Also I'm trying to get the CD "And Close As This" by Peter Hammill. Keith Emerson plays piano on "Empire Of Delight". My CD outlet says it's no longer made. I've never heard it. Does anyone know of a source for this? Thanks for your elp. Steve Plotczyk plotczyk@fssi.mhs.compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: WannaB3D@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:40:24 -0400 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ELP! Hello! I got my first issue today. I'm going to start reading in a minute, but first, a burning question! I just turned 26 March 30. I've been a fan all my life. I've grown up listening to ELP. I have never seen ELP live except the Don Kirchner Rock Concert. Where can I get a VHS copy of that concert? I am dying to see this once again. I've gotten most of the cd's (my albums were played to shreads!) I really liked the box set, and was glad to see ELP release Welcome back My Friends... on cd finally! Please help me out, I really would love to see that concert again! (or anything live for that matter!) Wanna B 3D@aol.com [ Editor's note: I've been hoping for the Don Kirshner "California Jam" ELP appearance to appear for a long time. BUt I've never heard of it being released. (I really got my hopes up when I saw word of Deep Purple's CalJam appearance being released on Laserdisc in Japan.) I, too, hope it emerges someday. - John - ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 03:57:37 EDT From: EURR49A@prodigy.com ( RANDY GARBISO) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Best Revenge, Murderock Digest # 9 was Great! Many thanks to M. Burns for sharing the KE interview with us. In the same issue Mr. William Gagliani asked for info about the KE song, "Playing for Keeps". "Playing for Keeps" is the Main title theme for the film BEST REVENGE. The soundtrack was produced, composed and performed by Keith Emerson. Accompanying credits include: Arranged by Keith Emerson and John Coleman--Orchestrated and Conducted by John Coleman- Drums and Percussion by Ainsley Dunbar. The soundtrack also features the National Philharmonic Orchestra. This soundtrack is paired with another original soundtrack by KE for a film titled MURDEROCK. Accompanying credits include: All Keyboards by Keith Emerson --Drums by Derek Wilson-- Bass guitar and Lead guitar by Mike Sheppard --Produced by Keith Emerson and Mike Sheppard. Both soundtracks are on the Keith Emerson CD by Chord Records (catalogue #CDColl:3). The liner notes give no other info about the two films so I don't know who produced or directed the two films. This disc is well worth the search, great music with that distinctive "Emerson touch"! Until next time, thanks to all. Randy ------------------------------ Digest, mailing address, and administrative stuff to: arnold@iii.net ==\ \ => The same for now... ELP-related info that you / want to put in the digest to: arnold@iii.net =/ Back issues are available from the World Wide Web ELP Home Page: URL: http://bliss.berkeley.edu/elp/ Note: The opinions, information, etc. contained in this digest are those of the original message sender listed in each message. They are not necessarily those of the mailing list/digest administrator or those of any institution through whose computers/networks this mail flows. Unless otherwise noted, the individual authors of each entry in the Digest are the copyright holders of that entry. Please respect that copyright and act accordingly. I especially ask that you not redistribute the ELP Digest in whole or in part without acknowledging the original source of the digest and each author. Thanks! ------------------------------ End of ELP Digest [Volume 5 Issue 13] *************************************