ELP Digest 02 November 2010 Volume 20: Issue 5 The "Tank" Edition Today's Topics: Breaking News, Rumors, Etc. - Re-released ELP bio? (October 17, 2010) Reader Commentary - Old Photos (October 12, 2010) Questions (and Answers!) - Yamaha GX-1 sounds... (October 4, 2010) - Re: ELP Digest Vol. 20 #04 (Hammonds and Leslies) (October 4, 2010) - Re: Virtual GX-1? (October 5, 2010) ELP-related products, tribute bands, promoters (The ELP Digest does not endorse, etc.) - seeking musicians into ELP (October 5, 2010) - Jeff Larsen Plays ELP - Solo Fingerstyle Guitar of ELP Classics (October 17, 2010) REVIEWS!!! Warning: Spoilers! - ELP in London (August 28, 2010) - High Voltage Festival (October 4, 2010) - Carl's Band (October 31, 2010) =========================== Prelude =========================== Hi. If you look back at the origins of the ELP Digest (alas, too well hidden on the web site at http://www.elp-digest.com/Digest/back-issues/elp-digest-archives.html), you'll see that it was 19 years ago today - Keith Emerson's birthday - NOT an accident - that the first ELP Digest was emailed to my mailing list. This was pre-web for almost all of us. The back issues didn't go up on the web until a few years later. So, the ELP Digest is older than my youngest son and he's in college now. Wow! I've been doing this for a long time. Anyway - more importantly - Happy Birthday, Keith Emerson! We all hope you have a happy and healthy birthday surrounded with friends, family, and music. Enjoy! In this issue of the DIgest, we've got some updates from the last issue including a review of the July ELP show at the High Voltage Festival that I misplaced earlier (oops) as well as a new report inspired by the reports in the last Digest. Also, some really good info on Hammonds and Leslies from someone who's a pro in the field and who has worked on Keith's equipment. There's also at least one reader/musician looking for people to play ELP with him. Let's get going... - John - ------------------------------ Latest News from the Official ELP sites .... Keith's site remains under re-construction, but be sure to become a Facebook fan at: http://www.facebook.com/KEITH.EMERSON.OFFICIALPAGE --------------------------------------------- Keep an eye on Greg's site for upcoming news about tours etc. at: http://greglake.com/tour_tour.html or http://greglake.com/news_news.html --------------------------------------------- Carl's site has links for tickets to his current tour including the final weeks of dates in the western US and in South America at: http://www.carlpalmer.com/ Also, there's a new guestbook for Carl's fans to share messages to Carl, reviews of Carl's shows, etc. at: http://palmer-power-guestbook.blogspot.com/2010/10/palmer-power-guestbook.html Enjoy! =========================== Breaking News, Rumors, Etc. =========================== From: Patrick Stammer Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 8:09 PM To: elp-digest Subject: Re-released ELP bio? Hi John, First, I was wondering if you knew that this was coming out this month, and second, if you are familiar with it, is it going to be an updated version? I just stumbled across it today! http://www.amazon.com/Emerson-Lake-Palmer-Show-Never/dp/1905139152/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287352267&sr=1-1#_ Thanks, Pat from Chicagoland [ Editor's Note: I don't know for certain whether this is an updated version or not. Do any readers know? - John - ] =========================== Reader Commentary =========================== From: James McGarvey Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:17 AM To: 'elp-digest' Subject: Old Photos Hi John I'll not bore you with the finer details but I found these old Manticore 8"x10" black & white photos when going through some boxes in the attic. The photos are of EL&P in the studio, one of Keith at the piano and one of Carl with his stainless steel kit which I know was a topic within the forum some time ago. Hopefully the rest of the forum will enjoy them . . . if only for the dodgy hair-dos. Cheers Jamie Glasgow, Scotland [Editor's Note: I don't want to flood everyone's Inbox with attachments but I would like to share these pictures, you can find them at: http://www.johnarnold.name/BrainSaladWeb/images/2010/20-05-ELP1.png http://www.johnarnold.name/BrainSaladWeb/images/2010/20-05-KeithEmerson1.png http://www.johnarnold.name/BrainSaladWeb/images/2010/20-05-CarlPalmer1.png - John - ] =========================== Questions (and Answers!) =========================== From: Joe Gerardi Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 9:40 PM To: elp-digest Subject: Yamaha GX-1 sounds... >>> From: Carlos Romero >>> Subject: Virtual GX-1? >>> >>> Well...I have a new question now about Yamaha GX-1! >>> >>> I have made a lot of inquires about a virtual instrument that can >>> make those sounds of GX-1, but so far I have not success. >>> >>> Could someone answer me if there is any virtual instrument that can >>> recreate those Yamaha GX-1 sounds? >>> >>> Carlos Not a virtual instrument per se, but there was a sound card for the Alesis QS series synths that has sampled Keith's GX, called "Vintage Synths Q-Card." There are some good programs created from those samples, and you can get a pretty effective Pirates sounds, and enough of the Fanfare sounds to get through the piece, and in fact, Keith's C-3 and the Monster Moog are sampled in the QS series synths as well. From the Monster Moog, they got the Lucky Man sound, the Tarkus Lead sounds, and several others. The samples were done by Dave Bryce, who is a KE fan as well as a hell of a musician and sound engineer, and he commented to me that the most fun he ever had was when those instruments were set up in Alesis' studios for the sampling sessions, and he would wail away doing all the ELP he knew (Which was quite a lot.) IIRC, he stated that Keith and he jammed a lot more than they sampled! It and the synths have long since been discontinued, but does show up on eBay from time to time. It needs either the QSR (rack synth) or the QS 6, 7, 8, or 6.1, 7.1, 8.1 synthesizers. (The .1's were slight improvements. I have the QS7, and never saw the need to upgrade to the .1 series, as it meant buying a whole new synth.) The good news is these synths aren't expensive. The bad news is they haven't got resonant filters, so tweaking the sounds is somewhat limited. ..Joe --------------------------------------------- From: goffprof Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 11:27 PM To: elp-digest Subject: Re: ELP Digest Vol. 20 #04 (Hammonds and Leslies) Hello John -- I always read the ELP Digest, but since this issue featured several items related to Keith's HAMMOND's and Leslie's, I thought I would help you respond to them. Martin Totusek wrote: -snip- "In the old days of The Nice, he'd mike Leslie speaker(s) [ I don't know the type of microphones he used set up around the Leslie speaker(s) ], run the signals through HiWatt amps with the treble turned way up, and out through a pile of Marshall Stacks, to get the Brother Jack McDuff "Rock Candy" sound. With ELP in 1977, I believe that he also used a portable soundproof booth around an off-stage Leslie, in addition to the on-stage Leslie." Good question, Martin. Here's some Leslie info.... In the 70's, Keith used many different types of tube and solid-state amp Leslie's with various miking and amp combinations. They had high JBL or EV upper drivers and woofers to handle the power of the HIWATT amps. As you know, most but not all of the Leslie's Keith used were (and still are) equipped with a rotating upper (plastic) horn and lower (wooden) bass rotor that are belt driven by individual SLOW and FAST Leslie motors mounted in 2 motor "stacks". The upper horn drive belt engages a small pulley on the top of its motor stack. The pulley has 3 different belt slots of differing sizes which produces 3 possible horn speeds - Slow, Mid, and Fast). This pulley speed option is in addition to the 2 Leslie motor speeds. In the 70's, Emo often had multiple Leslie's operating with the upper horns in different pulley slots so they were traveling at different speeds in relation to each other. This is especially noticeable when the Leslie is on "Chorale" or Slow speed, the upper belt is in the SMALLEST pulley slot, and the horn is turning the SLOWEST speed possible. This combination causes a slower rotation of the horn when the Leslie speed is switched from Chorale (slow) to "Tremolo" or Fast speed. The most common pulley slot is Mid, but many players like one of the other pulley slots since the horn speed is very different at both Slow and Fast motor speeds. Your reference to my old buddy Brother or "Captain" Jack McDuff was interesting as Capt Jack also liked to use different Leslie upper horn pulley speeds. He used the smallest one for certain songs as it provides the s-l-o-w-e-s-t slow and "fast" speed for a lush sounding Leslie effect. I modified a Leslie 122 for Jimmy McGriff with an even slower "slow" speed that was mechanically adjustable. Jimmy liked it as it slowed the upper horn horn rotation down another 30% and produced a very slow chorus effect. Great sound. You can change the pulley slot belt position very quickly and easily (maybe 5 seconds) once you know how to do it even with the Leslie on Slow speed. The mikes Emo's techs used in the 70's were usually inexpensive model like the Shure 57 (one or two) on the upper horn and a single 421 bass mike in a shotgun stand on the lower bass rotor. Both of Keith's rebuilt GOFF Professional Leslie 122's now have mikes that are permanently mounted in an oversize Leslie road case similar to the mikes installed on the Leslie the Doobie Brothers used for many years. Will came up with the idea to house both of Keith's Leslie 122's in ONE "double-wide" Leslie case that is extra-wide to allow the mikes to be mounted in special areas where the foam was removed outside the Leslie cabinets but still inside the road case. It allows both Leslie's to remain safely housed in the case during use and the "back" doors come off the case so everyone can see the rotating upper horns and lower rotors. Regarding Leslie miking, I have seen three very common mistakes made that affect sound quality. First one is to use an expensive mike on the upper horn that is too "bright" where it has a much higher than necessary high frequency range. The HIGHEST frequency Keith's HAMMOND C-3 mechanical tonewheel generator can actually produce is only slightly less the 6Khz, or 6000 hertz (cycles per second). If a microphone with a much higher frequency range is used, it capture much ambient / stage noise and other high-end bleed that is NOT organ audio. This gets mixed in with the HAMMOND sound and dilutes it. The second mistake is that the mikes are often placed too close to the rotating upper horn and lower bass rotor, causing a very "sharp" or cutting rotating sound that just sounds terrible. Mikes on the upper rotating horn should be placed far enough away from the Leslie cabinet to avoid direct wind noise. Same with the lower rotor mike. It should be placed far enough away to avoid the very pronounced "wind" noise that the rotating wood and (later foam) Leslie lower bass rotors use to allow the 15" Leslie woofer audi to escape the Leslie cabinet. The older style wooden rotating rotor has a large sloping wooden "scoop" that collects and moves a tremendous amount of bass audio and air. The air noise problem can be eliminated by using a rotor "scrim" or very fine cloth screen around the wood rotors to reduce the wind noise, or by moving the mike away from the rotating lower rotor. The third mistake involves the placement of two mikes on the upper horn. Most sound engineers place two mikes approximately 2 feet apart on the back of the cabinet for "stereo". This is not the best place as the Leslie rotary effect is NOT really rotary, it is elliptical. Since only ONE side of the plastic horn is actually drilled to allow sound to flow from the speaker driver, the other side is PLUGGED and is only used for balance of the horn when it spins. NEVER drill out the other horn side or the sound will be horrible. Tried it myself 30+ years ago and and it was awful. So, by placing two mikes on the upper horn at any position (relative to each other) other than 180 degrees away from each other for a true rotary sound, the sound is elliptical due to the Doppler Effect variations. My favorite upper horn mike placements are - one mike right-rear corner, one mike front-left corner. Pan one mike channel full LEFT; pan the other mike channel full RIGHT for stereo and the result is a true rotary sound that can be heard in the audience as the Leslie sound alternates almost perfectly between the left and right sound system speaker stacks. Try it and you'll see... Martin also wrote: -snip- " In the late 1970s or early 1980s [ I don't have the exact date... ], Al Goff [of Goff Professional (http://www.goffprof.com/) ] also built him a custom percussion booster, that allows Keith to boost the thunk of the percussion effect from 0% up through 300% of the stock Hammond percussion effect." You are again correct. I added a custom adjustable Percussion booster in the 80's on Keith's "Pictures" HAMMOND C3 along with a solid-state preamp, acoustic spring reverb, effect loops, MIDI, and many other mods. Once that was complete, I rebuilt the original "Tarkus" HAMMOND C3 and added a similar Percussion booster. But the Tarkus HAMMOND has a rebuilt and modified HAMMOND A0-28 tube preamp. In both organs, the Percussion booster does not merely make the stock factory Percussion level adjustable like a volume control. It is capable of turning the Percussion volume all the way down to OFF and continuously varying it with a volume pot (against the HAMMOND drawbar sound) through the factory Percussion stock levels, then even more - about 3 times louder at full Percussion level. With the Reverb control set on maximum, the organ volume at least 3/4 full, and with several drawbars out full to position 8, a quick strike of the keys will produce a 5-7 second reverb echo, and it's all acoustic, no digital anything. Martin also mentioned the 1998 Hartford, Connecticut concert which I also attended. I can't recall if ELP performed the full Tarkus Suite, but I do recall Tarkus was spectacular along with portions of Pictures. Not sure what happened to the engineer's recording of it, though. Carlos Romero wrote: -snip- "First of all...I wanna say: "Thank you very much for help about the question that I had made about the Hammond Sounds. I'd like to say that I bought The Hammond XK Traditional System on last Sunday and it will be a great instrument for me develop a work of prog rock with Emerson's sounds on Hammond!" The new HAMMOND-Suzuki XK system and the new Ham-Suz B3 are the closest thing yet to the original tonewheel generator sound. Any "clonewheel" HAMMOND sounds BEST when connected (correctly) into a tube amp Leslie 122. Remember with any HAMMOND-sound clone to EQ the digital audio so everything above 6Khz (6000 hz) is removed, since this was the highest frequency the original HAMMOND B-3/C-3 tonewheel generator could produce. "Noddy" aka Tom wrote several interesting comments about Keith using his L-100. Here's one: -snip- "He split a key with one of his daggers and scratched and scuffed the cabinet after leaving it on it's side - but again, that was expected. The key stays put as it's still playable - and a 'talking point' ... hehe .. ;c) " (Tom - If I had a quarter for every broken L-100 key I have replaced over the years..... :-) I remember my first ELP concert during their first visit to Hartford, CT. The concert promoter called our HAMMOND organ store and requested that my Dad supply an L-100 "rental" for the show. So, Dad had me unbox a brand new Walnut L-100. I did the normal HAMMOND dealer preparation and adjustment sequence for it, then I carefully waxed the new walnut bench, organ cabinet and keys, put a clean, fitted organ blanket on it, placed the L-100 on our Roll-Or-Kari organ moving dollies, and my older brother Bill and I carefully rolled it across the street from our HAMMOND store to the venue. None of us had never seen ELP perform so we all decided to stay for the show. I recall my Dad asking someone why the band had rented a brand new L-100 when it was obvious they had their own HAMMOND C3 and multiple Leslies. Midway through the show when Keith went into his knife attack, we were all standing inside the curtain line, stage left and were in SHOCK watching the playing keys flying around! Carl and Greg were standing close to us and everyone was watching Keith. In about 5 minutes, Keith threw around our brand new HAMMOND L-100 that I had *just* unboxed and waxed, smashed the cabinet to pieces, and several dozen plastic keys were either on stage or in the audience. My Dad, who was HAMMOND's first and oldest Senior HAMMOND Organ Service Technician, got extremely angry when he saw what was happening on stage and was threatening to go out and pull the plug on the L-100. Several people with the band told him this was part of the show. But, Greg realized there might be a problem, so he stepped in and assured my Dad that the band would pay for the organ and to please understand it WAS part of the show. My brother Bill and I were immediately ELP fans and that was the beginning of my own ELP experience that still continues. Every time I think about that first concert, I laugh and recall my Dad giving everyone HELL back stage that anyone would ever purposely attack a brand new HAMMOND with a knife and smash it to pieces onstage. He missed the part about the audience going absolutely WILD during the whole L-100 segment and this would be something they would remember. These days Keith still likes to use an L-100 when available, but they haven't been manufactured since 1974 so parts are scarce, especially cabinet parts and replacement playing keys. L-100 donor organs for parts for the cause are always welcome. This is why one of Keith's L-100's is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Who can ever forget the night the L-100 motor start capacitor burst into flames on stage in Boston? Emo asked me if I could recreate that effect... Hmmmm.... probably not easily accomplished and the original metal "can" starting capacitors were filled with oil that gets very hot! (Tom -- I suggest you look for a "parts" L-100 if you intend to let Keith recreate knife attacks to your organ in the future.... :-) David Silver had an extraordinary experience in Peekskill during the recent Emerson & Lake tour. He not only got to play the "Tarkus" HAMMOND C3, he played it with Emo accompanying him. I attended several E&L shows to work on the HAMMOND's and watch the shows with my buddies, Keith's keyboard tech Marc-Andre Berthiaume, and Production Manager, technician extraordinaire Keith Wechsler, but couldn't make the Peekskill show due to a prior scheduling conflict. I watched the YouTube video and applaud David's prowess. I also thought he showed true guts getting up to play alongside the best keyboard player ever. Well done, David. Hope the above provides some real answers to some very good questions and comments about Keith's HAMMOND's and Leslie's. I join with all of the ELP fans in wishing Emo a complete and speedy recovery! Best regards, Al Goff GOFF Professional goffprof@aol.com --------------------------------------------- From: Colin Nicholls Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:36 AM To: elp-digest Subject: Re: Virtual GX-1? Carlos - >> Could someone answer me if there is any virtual instrument that can >> recreate those Yamaha GX-1 sounds? I don't know about all of them, but Arturia's CS-80V will emulate the classic "Fanfare" sound, complete with a beautiful growl on the modulation. Sample here: http://www.spacefold.com/colin/ps/temp/CS80v_as_GX1.mp3 =========================== ELP-related products, tribute bands, promoters (The ELP Digest does not endorse, etc.) =========================== From: Scott Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:25 PM To: elp-digest Subject: seeking musicians into ELP I'm a keyboard player in New York (Westchester county), wondering if there may be a drummer and a bassist/vocalist nearby who would be interested in getting together and playing a bunch of ELP (and other prog)... maybe something that could get out and do some gigs if it really comes together... any takers? email: scotth29@optonline.net --------------------------------------------- From: Nick Zales Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 10:46 AM To: elp-digest Subject: Jeff Larsen Plays ELP - Solo Fingerstyle Guitar of ELP Classics Hello John! A friend recently put together a CD of classic ELP tunes done for solo guitar. You can hear some clips here. http://www.myspace.com/jefflarsenmusic/music I recently saw Jeff perform this CD live in Madison (a 1.5 hour show!) and at an art festival in Milwaukee. I thought "Trilogy" and "Tarkus" where the highlights of both shows. A devout ELP fan, Jeff has an interesting take on ELP songs I never thought could be made to work on classical guitar alone. Nick Milwaukee, WI =========================== REVIEWS!!! =========================== From: george waugh Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:31 PM To: elp-digest Subject: ELP in London I was fortunate enough to attend the ELP reunion gig in July, and as a lifelong and devoted fan, was not disappointed. The atmosphere was electric, the stage & sound system massive, and there was a huge crowd to see the band ( most of Europe's ELP fans I guess ). It must have been tough playing a one-off without warm-ups, and some nerves were evident at times. The one striking thing however was how good Greg Lake sounded. Having seen the band in London in 1992, and watched various DVDs, U-tube etc, it was evident he sounded the best he's been for 20 + years. He also seemed to have lost a fair amount of weight since the spring US tour with Keith. Carl Palmer was spot-on, which would be expected given his constant touring playing ELP covers. Keith's right hand strain was also evident, and he has to adjust frequently, although some things which I thought he might have trouble with he executed really well. The band were tight, dynamic, and looked good. The set was fairly predictable ( for a seasoned fan) but it was great to hear the Barbarian, and a fantastic reworked "Sage" which was close to the Mussorgsky piano score. I left the gig feeling the band had done a great job, and sensing this may be the last one. They went out with a bang. It's sad to see Greg & Keith now heading out on tour together, and Carl doing the same thing - separately - all doing ELP covers. Why wouldn't they just do it together ? From Carl's website, on the 26th Aug, he says the following to promote his forthcoming CP band tour: "......replacing the keyboards with electric guitar. I felt that was the only honest way to approach the music of ELP...." If Carl was honest, he would approach the music of ELP with er......EL&.....P !. How can an electric guitar possibly replace the multitude & diversity of keyboards which made up ELP's music ? ( not taking anything away from the CP band's guitarist, who is brilliant). Carl's comment is completely daft, given the recently documented desire of Keith & Greg to play as ELP again. If Carl was "honest", he would give the real reason(s) for not joining the other two - possibly financial, personal, or maybe the fact that he believes maybe the band isn't up to it, or just say nothing at all. But why continue to play an inferior version of the real thing in small pubs & clubs, with Keith & Gerg out doing exactly the same thing ?? Makes no sense to me. Regards George Waugh, Aberdeen, Scotland --------------------------------------------- From: John Mahoney Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 9:41 PM To: ELP Digest Subject: High Voltage Festival Hi John and ELP Digest readers, Here is my (somewhat late) review of my experience at the High Voltage festival back in July. I'm 18 years old, so I did not have the fortune to grow up when ELP was still big, but through my dad's vinyl collection and itunes I'm now their biggest fan. When I found out in 2008 or 2009 that ELP might regroup for a performance at High Voltage, it was the most exciting news I'd ever heard; it meant that I might actually have a chance to see them in my lifetime! I was able to get a plane ticket through a friend who works for the airline (I live in America), and spent half a week in London sightseeing and touring before the festival on the weekend. Seeing all those incredible bands (and being able to drink too! woohoo!) was the most amazing experience of my life. The festival was only the second "concert" I'd ever been to. On Sunday afternoon, I made my way to the main stage around 4:00, and stood there a good 4 - 5 hours waiting for ELP. I got a great spot, on the front fence right in front of Keith. The atmosphere as they wheeled his keyboard setup onto the stage was incredible. His moog received its own applause! Finally, ELP walked on to the stage with the beginning of Karn Evil 9: 1st Impression - Part 2 playing in the background. As they took their places, they began to play in sync with the recorded synth, then erupted into musical ecstasy! Having only seen videos on youtube of their old performances, the experience of actually being less than 20 feet away from Keith Emerson himself while he performed a song that I've listened to hundreds of times was indescribable. I don't remember the exact song list they played through, but the highlights were KE9, Barbarian, Knife Edge, Tarkus, PaaE, and their finale, which consisted of Fanfare for the Common Man, Palmer's rotating drum solo, and Rondo. Although, I should note that Palmer tearing off his shirt halfway through his solo wasn't exactly the height of the performance. Keith of course finished with the ritualistic Hammond-stabbing. I'm proud to say that I was privileged enough to have seen him stab it in person! (how many other people my age can say that? not many!) The place I was standing also put me right in front of the cannon blast, which took me completely by surprise. With his hand problems, Keith's playing abilities were not what they used to be, but he played the music with the same amount of energy and musical genius that he had back in the day. In my opinion, Keith is still far superior to any other modern musician, even with his hand trouble. It was funny to hear Greg shout "FEEDBACK FEEDBACK" at his crew (as far as I could tell, there wasn't even any noticeable feedback). All in all, going to High Voltage and seeing ELP live was an experience of a lifetime. The rest of the festival was good too. I got to see a bunch of old prog bands that I really like, ate tons of good food, and had a grand time. If anyone is considering attending High Voltage next year: DO IT! Even if ELP is not there, it's a blast! Prior to my trip to London, I bought a brand new camera. I took plenty of footage, and I'm gradually uploading it all to YouTube. If anyone wants to see it, my YouTube account is PruneyToes: http://www.youtube.com/user/pruneytoes John Mahoney --------------------------------------------- Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:57 PM To: ELP Digest Subject: Carl's Band Saw this review/article on Examiner.com of a recent Carl Palmer Band show... Carl Palmer Band Plays Music of ELP 10-30-10 Examiner.com Snippet: "The Carl Palmer Band consisting of guitarist Paul Bielatowicz , bassist Simon Fitzpatrick and Carl Palmer on Drums, made a rare appearance at The Englert Theatre on Halloween Eve. Carl Palmer's signature Ludwig double-bass drum kit was center stage with a CP logo projected on the stage wall. The logo, a take on the famous ELP logo represented an evening of ELP music by The Carl Palmer Band. The Carl Palmer Band opened their show with a powerful rendition of Barbarian. Replacing Keith Emerson's keyboards was Paul Bielatowicz's guitar techniques, which actually worked well, even with the Joe Satriani comparisons. [...]" URL: http://www.examiner.com/concerts-in-cedar-rapids/carl-palmer-band-plays-music-of-elp-10-30-10-review =========================== Digest subscription, mailing address, and administrative stuff (including Unsubscribe requests) to: elp-digest-request@reluctant.com ELP-related info that you want to put in the digest to: elp-digest@reluctant.com Back issues are available from the ELP Digest web site: http://www.brain-salad.com/ Note: The opinions, information, etc. contained in this digest are those of the original message sender listed in each message. They are not necessarily those of the mailing list/digest administrator or those of any institution through whose computers/networks this mail flows. Unless otherwise noted, the individual authors of each entry in the Digest are the copyright holders of that entry. Please respect that copyright and act accordingly. I especially ask that you not redistribute the ELP Digest in whole or in part without acknowledging the original source of the digest and each author. Thanks! End of ELP Digest [Volume 20, Issue 5] **************************************